skidder vs dozer

[4x4American]

Looking to hear some opinions on logging with a dozer vs a skidder? gypo operation im talking about here. cant seem to find a decent skidder for my price range. theres an older d4 w/ hyster winch in pretty decent shape down the road for more my budget. The setbacks that I see are- 1: needs to be moved w/ a trailer always. 2: doesn't have log arch. 3: undercarriage can be expensive. 4: not as maneuverable as a skidder. Plusses I can see- 1: Will move wood for cheaper than a skidder. if undercarriage lasts me long enough that I've pulled enough wood to pay for itself and maybe some of the parts for it i'm happy. 2: better for building roads. 3: I can hire myself out as a dozer owner/op if need arises. 4: old cat dozers will go through hell and back, they are tried and true.

Thanks!

 

[Gologit]

You seem to have a good opinion of Cats. Have you run one very much?

 

[northmanlogging]

Comes down to ground, steep ground and short pulls a cat really shines, flat ground, or at least semi flat ground, and long pulls can't beat a skidder.

At the same time you have to go with what you can afford and what you can find, a cat will get you logging, as far as making it profitable, well that's up to you.

Another thing to consider is that a tracked machine can tear up the surface more than a wheeled machine, while not really bad, the average Land Owner doesn't know the difference between compaction and erosion.

Getting a small machine moved isn't all that bad, it gets significantly worse the larger the machine...

In a perfect world both machines would be ideal...

 

[DavdH]

Crawler first then skidder later, skidder's are pretty much specialists and crawlers are generalists in the woods, crawler can do it all, skidders can skid.

 

[OlympicYJ]

How old of D4 are you looking at?

 

[4x4American]

You seem to have a good opinion of Cats. Have you run one very much?

I've got a bit of seat time on an 80s D5 cat from work, that things my sweetheart. Just push dirt with her. I've also got some seat time in deere 350's and 450's. Have skidded with one 350 that had a winch on it. One of the steering brakes was shot, so had to do everything using only one brake. Got used to runnin it that way pretty fast.

 

[4x4American]

Comes down to ground, steep ground and short pulls a cat really shines, flat ground, or at least semi flat ground, and long pulls can't beat a skidder.

At the same time you have to go with what you can afford and what you can find, a cat will get you logging, as far as making it profitable, well that's up to you.

Another thing to consider is that a tracked machine can tear up the surface more than a wheeled machine, while not really bad, the average Land Owner doesn't know the difference between compaction and erosion.

Getting a small machine moved isn't all that bad, it gets significantly worse the larger the machine...

In a perfect world both machines would be ideal...

Yea around here there's alot of steep ground, but also a bit of flat ground, depending where you're working. Sometimes there's alot of land to be logged and sometimes there's only 5-10 acres for the landowner. I figure I'll proberly start out doing smaller jobs, maybe some road building and such. The D4 has some gnarly grousers on it, it will most definitely tear up the ground pretty good. I don't know if the dozer is light enough to move with a gooseneck and pickup truck.

 

[4x4American]

How old of D4 are you looking at?

I can't remember exactly but I believe it's late 70s-early 80s. It needs a cable and new batteries, a couple of minor things welded, a good grease job, full fluid service, and who knows what else. For the most part looks ready to go.

 

[bnmc98]

Just a thought, you mentioned building road. A D4 might not be enough guts especially if you are dealing with rock, steep hills, large stumps, etc... we use a D6 and its about right but we build a lot of raod. Comes in handy if a truck gets stuck too.
Also, in my opinion, speed is a big factor as well. If you are going to build road and move your landing as you go, a crawler might serve well, but a skidder is king for getting wood to the landing much faster, and smoother.

Like Northman said, in a perfect world, both would be an asset.

 

[Gologit]

I can't remember exactly but I believe it's late 70s-early 80s. It needs a cable and new batteries, a couple of minor things welded, a good grease job, full fluid service, and who knows what else. For the most part looks ready to go.

You've had some good advice from some people with actual experience. I agree that the 4 would be a better machine to start with. I don't know what your ground or timber is like but a small Cat would probably be more versatile than a skidder. They're not a real power-house but if a guy is patient with them and doesn't start thinking he's running an 8 he can get a lot of work done.
Brush up on your welding skills and your wrenching skills, too. Makes friends with a good parts supplier.
Crawl underneath it before you buy it. Take a flash lite and a putty knife to scrape off gunk with. Look at every gusset and weld. Every one. Spend some time under there and look at everything. A lot of Cats have been on their side or upside down and sometimes the resulting damage won't show up for a while.

 

[4x4American]

Thanks GL, I'll give her a thorough checkup before I put any money down.


I wonder how much a log arch would cost or where I could find one...hmm

 

[4x4American]

Just a thought, you mentioned building road. A D4 might not be enough guts especially if you are dealing with rock, steep hills, large stumps, etc... we use a D6 and its about right but we build a lot of raod. Comes in handy if a truck gets stuck too.
Also, in my opinion, speed is a big factor as well. If you are going to build road and move your landing as you go, a crawler might serve well, but a skidder is king for getting wood to the landing much faster, and smoother.

Like Northman said, in a perfect world, both would be an asset.

I think that for my applecation, it might be okay. I am not going to be starting out full time, I have a regular job with an excavation/construction company, and my plan is to log during the winter time when we're slow. After mud season I'll most likely be back to working for them, unless I'm doing well making ends meet logging and sawmilling.

 

[4x4American]

Went and checked it out more thoroughly this afternoon. It's an 81-82 D4E. It aint in that bad corndition honestly. There were a few cracks in belly pan/skid plate that were welded. I think just from stump jumping I would guess. The rear end is leaking from the gasket area, just starting to seep on one side and been seeping for awhile on the other throughout larger portion of gasket. That don't worry me too much, just gotta keep on top of the earl. Hyster winch has seen some use but not too bad looking. That spring thing that goes acrost the bottom, well the mount on one side has been fabricated, not that bad looking, but not that great looking either. Batteries are dead, which is expected, it's been sitting for two years, except for the occasional start up and move to different spot in yard type deal. Lift ram on front blade needs to be repacked. The sprockets have about a 1/4"-5/16" of flat spot left at tip, not sure how much they are supposed to have and at what point they need replaced. She told me that the springs there that tension the tracks have been recently replaced. The injection pump is leaking where the shaft that controls governor enters. Not sure what all needs to be done there. Missing winch cable. Other than that stuff, just small stuff, like lights need to be wired up to a switch, needs handles welded on, needs full service, etc. It doesn't look like it's really been abused (except the fact that nothing looked greased).

I think it will do what I need it to do, but I am still tentative for a few reasons:
1. I don't know if my 3/4 ton pickup will be able to move it.
2. It doesn't have a log arch, and I want to keep logs clean as possible/leave minimal impact.
3. I can't drive it down the road like I could a skidder.
4. It's not a skidder.

What I do like:
1. Versatile
2. Tracks provide excellent traction
3. Built like a burlap bag full of bobcats
4. No computey box

 

[rwoods]

I think it will do what I need it to do, but I am still tentative for a few reasons:
1. I don't know if my 3/4 ton pickup will be able to move it.

I ain't riding with you - at least not very far or fast. Doesn't that baby weigh around 19,000#? Ron

 

[Gologit]

If it looks like nothing has ever been greased I think I'd take a harder look at it. Add up the costs for all the repairs you need to make on it before you even start using it. It might be quite a bit. If you're not in a hurry and you can do the work yourself you might be alright but shop rates will just kill you.
How many hours on the engine? How about an engine oil analysis? If the present owners have let small items slide it would make me wonder about other things.

Just 'cause you can buy it doesn't always mean you should buy it. It's for sale for a reason.

 

[northmanlogging]

There Mr. right and Mr. right now...

rams not a big deal, you can do most it at home,

the injection pump could be problematic... as in big expense to make reliable right away...

Sprockets can be fine but the chains could be toast... just something to consider.

Grease can be deceiving, if its been sitting awhile the grease will have dried out anyway, and maybe even flaked off, with luck there should be some sign of some grease somewhere. Best clue is if the zerts are clogged up and not working it probably hasn't been greased in the last 10 years or so.

As far as moving it with a 3/4 ton, possible yes, wise NO... safe definitely not...

figure on 200 or so for some new winch line and a few chokers.

Think I mentioned before somewheres about building an arch for cheap, couple of spindles and wheels of a medium/heavy duty truck, welded to a frame some heavy wall 4" tubing, steal the fair lead off of something or build your own, couple of bearings and some schedule 80 or better pipe, could even get fancy and just rig it to the top of the winch and away you go.

 

[4x4American]

I ain't riding with you - at least not very far or fast. Doesn't that baby weigh around 19,000#? Ron

That dude hauled a D4 with a dodge pickup. Mines a 24 valve. Not sure I'd even try to haul it. It aint about the go as much as it's about the whoa. Lots a steep grades and hairpin turns around here.

 

[4x4American]

If it looks like nothing has ever been greased I think I'd take a harder look at it. Add up the costs for all the repairs you need to make on it before you even start using it. It might be quite a bit. If you're not in a hurry and you can do the work yourself you might be alright but shop rates will just kill you.
How many hours on the engine? How about an engine oil analysis? If the present owners have let small items slide it would make me wonder about other things.

Just 'cause you can buy it doesn't always mean you should buy it. It's for sale for a reason.

I am not in a hurry to put it to work right away. My regular job is still going, but in another month or so we will be done for the season, leaving me with alot of time, looking for dime. The hourmeter doesn't work, it reads 600 something hours. So I'm not sure how many it's got. I could most likely get an engine oil analysis. The lady went from stubborn on her price, to open to offers when I mentioned c/s/s some firewood for her. (she's an older lady who had a good run of bad luck that ended her up with these machines). I am able to do most if not all of the work it needs myself. I could get an oil sample, not sure where to send it around here. I agree with the letting small items slide, but I did notice, that there was no crack or break I could find that went un-welded.

 

[4x4American]

There Mr. right and Mr. right now...

rams not a big deal, you can do most it at home,

the injection pump could be problematic... as in big expense to make reliable right away...

Sprockets can be fine but the chains could be toast... just something to consider.

Grease can be deceiving, if its been sitting awhile the grease will have dried out anyway, and maybe even flaked off, with luck there should be some sign of some grease somewhere. Best clue is if the zerts are clogged up and not working it probably hasn't been greased in the last 10 years or so.

As far as moving it with a 3/4 ton, possible yes, wise NO... safe definitely not...

figure on 200 or so for some new winch line and a few chokers.

Think I mentioned before somewheres about building an arch for cheap, couple of spindles and wheels of a medium/heavy duty truck, welded to a frame some heavy wall 4" tubing, steal the fair lead off of something or build your own, couple of bearings and some schedule 80 or better pipe, could even get fancy and just rig it to the top of the winch and away you go.

hah Mr. Right and Mr. Right now that's good. The injection pump could need rebuilt. I know of a place not far away who specializes in IP rebuilding. You know, maybe after sitting for two years, the weather has taken out the visible grease. Plus it taint been working so no grease really getting pounded out or new put in. I don't think I will try to move it with my old tired 3/4 ton. I agree I bet I could come up with some sort of log arch on the gyppo side of things.

 

[hammerlogging]

I'm thinking dozer too Versatile, not good for long skids though. Opening /closing jobs, waterbars, and the other work you mentioned. How much is she asking?