Toppers

[Rftreeman]

Here is a pic of what he did....so what did I do wrong??? I provided her with several items of literature from the TCIA and ISA. I told her about the problems they would have...

you didn't offer her what she wanted, that's why you did get the job............

 

[teamtree]

Well....one thing is for sure...life is too short to argue online about tree care. I will handle my business the best way I can and do the right thing as much as possible.

I am a realist and this problem is not going away overnight. And all of the people who have enough business to not have to "adjust" to the market....I say good for you. I am trying to get there.

I will tell you this...I will pay anyone of you $5000 plus expenses to come here for 1 week and go on a minimum of 40 sales calls and sell proper tree care to 20 of them. I am telling you I am in tree care hell. I would love to take some of you "CA" and "BCMA" to this one guys house. He told me I sounded like a CA and wanted me off his property. He knows what he wants. LOL

 

[Blakesmaster]

The reason I use the work “indiscriminate” is because there are a few exceptions to the rule. This get complicated to explain because there are so many scenarios, and types of trees with different growth characteristics. Each tree and situation needs to be evaluated on its own merits. A general rule that I follow is that I do not recommend “crown reduction” or “drop-crotch pruning” often. I always try to work with a tree maintaining its natural branching, leaders, or apical dominance. Height seldom equates hazard. There are certain structural problem a tree can develop that will increase the chance of failure, and those can be mitigated through various means including pruning. Hazard tree abatement is a whole different subject which should be put on another thread.

Here is a general rule, if your pruning does not maintain the apical dominance of the branch, or if it creates excessive suckering (water-sprouts), you very well may have made a mistake. Pollarding is an exception. The excessive suckering is not natural, and is the trees response to injury.

If a person is concerned that their tree is too tall, and usually they have no understanding of that concern, I tell them the moon is 93,000,000 miles away and it will not be rubbing it any time soon. I then explain to them how tree are designed, their growth characteristics, and inspect the tree for structural defects. I’ve always been able to answer their concerns, give them good information, and sell proper tree work that is good for their trees.
I’m hoping that others reading these posts will learn to do the same. It’s not that hard.

All right. Your "moon" analogy is the most retarded thing I've ever heard but I'll do my best to overlook that for some of the valid points you brought up prior to that infraction of idiocy. Maybe I'm finding myself on the "arborist" side of this debate because I don't do indiscriminate topping but I have done things to trees which I know won't be helpful to them in the long run but have done my best to find a meidian between "proper tree care", what the customer wants, and what's most profitable for me. The pictures of toppings you put up are obvious hack jobs but there is SOOOO much in between that and what most of you guys tout as proper tree care. Every thing has to be taken into account, proximity of structures, overall health of tree, types of storms the tree will be exposed to, type of tree yada yada yada....
The point is. Putting regulations, stipulations, across the board bull shisms on our industry will not solve that problem because, as YOU said, every situation is different so taking a hard azzed, "trees must be saved at all costs" stand point is lunacy. But that's just me, and I'm simply a stupid redneck with a chainsaw.

 

[clearance]

No one here has actually advocated topping except for specific and often practical reasons (ie, trees under powerlines). However Tim has chosen to label all those who are are not fanatically opposed to topping as hacks.

He, like Treeseer is a preservationist, not a conservationist, like myself. Trees are good, yes, are they to be worshipped and put on a pedestal above human needs and desires? I think not.

If him and those of his ilk have thier way, it will be yet another loss of freedom that has made your country great.

 

[limbwalker54]

......I'm goin to bed......Gotta wake up for proper tree care tomorrow

 

[1I'dJak]

I better go to bed as well...I've got about a good 12-20 is old growth trees to top tommorow...

 

[forestryworks]

people who call and ask me to top their trees...
i tell them you might as well cut the damn thing down
topping kills it
and i walk away

if they want me to take it down they'll call

otherwise, i've got firewood to sell :greenchainsaw:

 

[clearance]

I better go to bed as well...I've got about a good 12-20 is old growth trees to top tommorow...

You are going to hell. Me too, I can't even start to remember how many old growth trees I topped when I did your job for over a year.

Windfirming in riparian areas, check it out guys.

 

[BCMA]

You all make good points that supports what I am trying to do for my company, my community and this industry.

I do educate my community, I volunteer my time with and organization trying to stop topping.

I agree and I admit when I stand my ground I get more attention from the customer. I feel better when I walk away but with some remorse that I am letting the "hacks" win by doing the work. I need to get over playing down to the competition.

I agree, I wish there was a little more structure for this industry.

I may not be as good as BCMA and TreeCo and I agree with almost every thing they say, especially as far as tree care goes. But I disagree that I am hurting the industry by topping a few trees every year at the price of the greater good. For example, I recently removed 5 large trees that had been previously topped (technical rigging required) and trimmed a 6th tree that most would consider a "topping". If the other guy got the job....someone who openly admits topping as an accepted practice and advertises "topping" in the yellow pages...I would have promoted a loser. I am supposed to walk away from that job and let him have all that removal money??? Money to be spent by him in the bars. He does no good for the community....He does not educate customers. If me hitting him in the wallet was bad then I should get out of the business and let him make hay and topping trees. I can take that money and help promote proper tree care. I know it sounds ass backwards but I believe it to be the right thing in the right situation.

I spent about an hour with a lady and discussed the effects of topping and said I will give you an estimate to properly prune her trees. A few weeks later one of my employees ask about the job and who was doing it. Well, it was the guy mentioned above and he was making topping cuts at about 8" limbs. Here is a pic of what he did....so what did I do wrong??? I provided her with several items of literature from the TCIA and ISA. I told her about the problems they would have...

My mother ask them about the job and they told her they thought the guys who did the job did a nice job trimming their trees and would recommend them.

Regardless of losing a job here and there, continue to hold to the professional standards of our industry. You will come out ahead in the long run.

Just this week I heard about two of the bottom-feeders going out of business. Neither one had a state contractor’s license, and were probably not insured.

 

[BCMA]

I have topped for power line clearance but would have rather removed
the trees and planted better species! I have topped to preserve a severe
crown die back but I only cut the dead out still looked topped. In every case I have; I have tried to convince the customer they would be better served by replacement and removal ! Top a healthy tree I won't I don't want anyone identifying me by hacking up their trees. Thinning and slight crown reduction is what I recommend or just thinning!

You're on the right track. Taking the dead out of a die-back crown is not topping. I would consider it crown restoration or simply dead-wood removal.

Stand firm on NO TOPPING!

 

[BCMA]

Well....one thing is for sure...life is too short to argue online about tree care. I will handle my business the best way I can and do the right thing as much as possible.

I am a realist and this problem is not going away overnight. And all of the people who have enough business to not have to "adjust" to the market....I say good for you. I am trying to get there.

I will tell you this...I will pay anyone of you $5000 plus expenses to come here for 1 week and go on a minimum of 40 sales calls and sell proper tree care to 20 of them. I am telling you I am in tree care hell. I would love to take some of you "CA" and "BCMA" to this one guys house. He told me I sounded like a CA and wanted me off his property. He knows what he wants. LOL

I would be more than happy to come to your town and sell tree work with you. I would teach you everything I know, and I'm sure I could learn a lot from you. It would be a good time!

 

[BCMA]

All right. The point is. Putting regulations, stipulations, across the board bull shisms on our industry will not solve that problem because, as YOU said, every situation is different so taking a hard azzed, "trees must be saved at all costs" stand point is lunacy. But that's just me, and I'm simply a stupid redneck with a chainsaw.

I did not say that trees need to be "saved" at all costs. But I will say and please feel free to quote me, "perfectly healthy trees should not be ruined by topping, or because If I don’t top them…someone else will!”

Also, you do not have to be what you said about yourself. You can be a respected professional in the tree care industry providing quality tree work. It is a respectable profession when it’s done right.

 

[BCMA]

No one here has actually advocated topping except for specific and often practical reasons (ie, trees under powerlines). However Tim has chosen to label all those who are are not fanatically opposed to topping as hacks.

He, like Treeseer is a preservationist, not a conservationist, like myself. Trees are good, yes, are they to be worshipped and put on a pedestal above human needs and desires? I think not.

If him and those of his ilk have thier way, it will be yet another loss of freedom that has made your country great.

Trees are not to be worshipped and put above human needs and desires, unless it is YOUR NEED AND DESIRE TO GO OUT AND RUIN MORE TREES! I will then put trees above your needs and desires. Whatever your needs and desires are…a few bucks and some beer.

I also do not think I will be able to get through Congress a bill that will outlaw topping. You should be good for at least a few more years .

 

[BCMA]

You are going to hell. Me too, I can't even start to remember how many old growth trees I topped when I did your job for over a year.

Windfirming in riparian areas, check it out guys.

Clearance- you or anyone else do not have to go to hell! Really, all you need to do is repent and stop topping trees. I really hope that you and some other will be able to embrace this simple concept. Topping is bad. Stop it!
And I'm not talking about utility line clearance.

 

[clearance]

Clearance- you or anyone else do not have to go to hell! Really, all you need to do is repent and stop topping trees. I really hope that you and some other will be able to embrace this simple concept. Topping is bad. Stop it!
And I'm not talking about utility line clearance.

You don't know what windfirming is do you? Course not, it involves topping trees so its bad. I will explain it to you, but again, with so many letters behind your name.....and it is nothing to do with utility work.

Windfirming is done when an area is clearcut, it is done to prevent the trees that are along the edge, usually beside a creek, from blowing down. The trees right on the edge of the clearcut for about 60' back into the standing timber are spiral pruned and topped, at around 6"-8".

Without this, these trees, which have stood for hundreds of years will blow down, will, not maybe. I have seen it happen, actually seen it, seen the results many times. So, when we windfirm, we are saving the shelter over creeks, leaving wildlife corridors open. The whole idea is not to save these trees forever, it is to give the understory time to grow.

I have no desire to ruin trees, the windfirming work I did and Jak does now is a good thing. You saying my needs are...."a few bucks and some beer" is a slur, a putdown, just like how you repeatedly call people bottom feeders and hacks. You have no knowledge of my desires, wants or wishes.

So again, it is for you to be educated, about what goes on in other places.

 

[forestryworks]

You don't know what windfirming is do you? Course not, it involves topping trees so its bad. I will explain it to you, but again, with so many letters behind your name.....and it is nothing to do with utility work.

Windfirming is done when an area is clearcut, it is done to prevent the trees that are along the edge, usually beside a creek, from blowing down. The trees right on the edge of the clearcut for about 60' back into the standing timber are spiral pruned and topped, at around 6"-8".

Without this, these trees, which have stood for hundreds of years will blow down, will, not maybe. I have seen it happen, actually seen it, seen the results many times. So, when we windfirm, we are saving the shelter over creeks, leaving wildlife corridors open. The whole idea is not to save these trees forever, it is to give the understory time to grow.

I have no desire to ruin trees, the windfirming work I did and Jak does now is a good thing. You saying my needs are...."a few bucks and some beer" is a slur, a putdown, just like how you repeatedly call people bottom feeders and hacks. You have no knowledge of my desires, wants or wishes.

So again, it is for you to be educated, about what goes on in other places.

great informative post, sir

tried to rep ya, but i'm out

 

[lxt]

clearance, some of these guys just dont know!! yep they have the insignia, the title and lots of books with information they have yet to apply to one aspect of tree care let alone to the other sectors of tree care.

I would welcome bcma to come to my area and try to sell his "no topping" philosophy......I`ve been trying for along time, the truth is if the home owner wants their tree topped.....WANT!! someone will do it!! like I said in a previous post who are you to tell someone what to do to their trees.

the thought is & I run into it a lot.."I planted it 35yrs ago, topped er every 4-5yrs and thats what I want done, period!"

all anyone can do is the best they can do with what they`ve to work with & above all be safe!!


LXT...........

 

[BCMA]

You don't know what windfirming is do you? Course not, it involves topping trees so its bad. I will explain it to you, but again, with so many letters behind your name.....and it is nothing to do with utility work.

Windfirming is done when an area is clearcut, it is done to prevent the trees that are along the edge, usually beside a creek, from blowing down. The trees right on the edge of the clearcut for about 60' back into the standing timber are spiral pruned and topped, at around 6"-8".

Without this, these trees, which have stood for hundreds of years will blow down, will, not maybe. I have seen it happen, actually seen it, seen the results many times. So, when we windfirm, we are saving the shelter over creeks, leaving wildlife corridors open. The whole idea is not to save these trees forever, it is to give the understory time to grow.

I have no desire to ruin trees, the windfirming work I did and Jak does now is a good thing. You saying my needs are...."a few bucks and some beer" is a slur, a putdown, just like how you repeatedly call people bottom feeders and hacks. You have no knowledge of my desires, wants or wishes.

So again, it is for you to be educated, about what goes on in other places.

I understand the effects of clear-cuts and the potential for failure on edge-trees. I have never heard or seen of your prescription being prescribed or executed. Yes, it is true, that a tree that has been cut in half or has had its height reduced severely, is less likely to fall over in this setting. But, as you solve one problem, you have also opened up yourself other problems, unless you are trying to make snags, wildlife habitat, trees with heart rot, etc.. I don’t think you will get foresters or timber producers prescribing your recommendation.

Do you have any documentation, research, or papers written on this procedure recommending it?

Here is a little I’ve studied on the subject but I realize that I’ve got much to learn. The more I learn, the more I realize what I do not know.

Hazard Tree Evaluation and Risk Management​

• Certified Tree Risk Assessor #168, Pacific Northwest Chapter of the International Society of Arboriculture, Portland, OR. 2006
• International Tree Failure Database Assessor, ISA-PNW Conference, Corvallis, OR, 2007
• Hazard Tree Evaluation Workshop, American Society of Consulting Arborist Annual Conference, Portland, Maine, 1993
• Tree Risk Assessment, Ed Hays, Pacific Northwest Chapter – ISA, Spokane, WA. 2007
• Case Studies in Risk Assessment, ASCA Annual Conference, Napa, CA. 2006
• Basic Tree Risk Assessment, International Society of Arboriculture CEU, 2007
• Managing Risk in the Urban Forest Part 1, International Society of Arboriculture CEU, 2007
• Managing Risk in the Urban Forest Part 2, International Society of Arboriculture CEU, 2007
• Managing Risk in the Urban Forest Part 3, International Society of Arboriculture CEU, 2007
• Managing Risk in the Urban Forest Part 4, International Society of Arboriculture CEU, 2007
• Understanding the Connection between Dynamic Wind Forces and Hazard Trees, Ken James, ISA-PNW Conference, Corvallis, OR, 2007
• Tree Risk Assessment, Victor D. Merullo, American Society of Consulting Arborist Annual Conference, Nashville Tennessee, 2007
• Root Cutting and Root Risk Assessment, E. Thomas Smiley, Ph.D., The Bartlett Research Lab, American Society of Consulting Arborist Annual Conference, Nashville Tennessee, 2007
• Tree Failure Risk Evaluations, International Society of Arboriculture Compendium CEU, 2008

 

[Mike Barcaskey]

clearance, some of these guys just dont know!! yep they have the insignia, the title and lots of books with information they have yet to apply to one aspect of tree care let alone to the other sectors of tree care.
LXT...........

that is real funny right there, coming from a guy who used the word "Certified" in his newspaper ad, but yet has no certifications

 

[Rftreeman]

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah so I guess if I just start stub cutting then I'll be ok???????