Underbidding idiots

[Dadatwins]

Had a call to price a job a job today, potential was recommended by a former customer who was very happy with our prior work. This new potential customer wanted 2 trees removed, a pine and and a gum, in front of the house. They have been shopping prices and told me that price was most important detail of job. After looking at trees they both had to be climbed and rigged due to landscaping below, probably a 3-4 hour job climbing, 1/2 that with a bucket. Not a real hard or tricky job, but a lot of material to remove, all trash wood, and just time consuming. I gave a price that I thought was fair and would have paid for my help and disposal cost. My price on this job was $800.00 I am also paying for state and county license and insurance. I also considered that this was recommendation and hoped to get more calls from this client. After giving the price the potential tells me that I am double the lowest price that they have received so far. I told the potential that I would not consider doing the job for the suggested price, and wished them good luck. I told them to call me if the contractor was unable to do the work. Of course I and every one has been underbid before, but by 1/2 ????. I am scratching my head trying to figure out how someone could do a job so cheap and make $$$ Even using a pickup truck and no chipper, this job would take 1-2 hours of climbing and 3 loads or debris to a dump, which would take an additional 3-4 hours of travel time. I have no intention of lowering my price which I consider to be fair and continue to offer quality work, but it is aggravating that people can come in and 1/2 bid a price.
Shame on them. Thanks for letting me blow some steam.

 

[ropensaddle]

Happens here all the time, feel with you man; but really I would rather not have a customer only price motivated !

 

[rebelman]

I don't mind near as much on removals. It's hack pruning, hurried flush cuts and angled stubs, gratuitous breeches of standard that grate on me. Apples and oranges. ANSI A300 is said to level the field for competing bids. Here's hoping homeowners get the message someday. And corporations. Thanks for the chance to rant dadatwins.

 

[treeseer]

All that for $400? They are cutting corners, with stuff like insurance and legal dumping and who knows maybe landscape-smashing too. If the client does not check insurance or references then they get what they deserve, which may include a claim from an injured uninsured contractor.

but man if they told you up front that removal was the only service they wanted and price was the only issue, then you wasted your time by diving in with the bottom feeders. That kind of caller needs info on tree values and tree benefits and why hire an arborist, and is left to go on their arborphobic ways.

Why'd they want the trees down--litter nuisance, right?

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I've had people tell me that things like "we had other people bid all three trees for the price you ask for the two!"

I tell them to get a current cert of insurance and go with it. This is too much work for me to do it for a pitiance. I've got to pay my plumber $98 an hour

 

[treeman82]

I just looked at a job last weekened. 9 trees. I told the lady $2,500... but then started to get a bad feeling, so I said I need to re-evaluate this and will be back tonight with a proper proposal. Brought a friend over who has more experience than I do with jobs like this. He told me not to take any less than $3,500 - $4,000... and that's only while things are still quiet. So I gave them the price that he recommended... didn't ge the job thank goodness.

 

[ropensaddle]

Man, had a customers neighbor have another local hack come
topped four pecan trees, complained to here neighbor that she have
something done with old mature water oak. I came over told lady we
could remove limb over neighbors house, raise crown, and dead wood
remove crossing branches. The neighbor came out said she wanted it
topped like here trees I gave customer isa literature on topping she told
me she wanted the tree healthy.I told here I wasn't sure if here neighbor
could sue here for not punishing her trees, in the case of act of god or
tornado, but that if a tornado hit house would be damaged anyway!
These situations scare me if a limb does fail, hit neighbors roof am I liable
for doing best thing for tree? I try to do right thing and don't like this
kind of situation where a hack came in and butchered trees on property
next to your customer then you come in totally different approach. I
also told customer I could install cable to help support remaining limbs
she didn't want to have much expense as this was a rental ! So there
went any future of supporting care for the tree do any of you have it this way?

 

[Ed Roland]

Maybe the low ballers want to try to flop the trees and save some time. I would point this out to the customer and make sure they understand the damage these hacks will cause. Or could be, they just love killing themselves for nothin!

 

[clearance]

You usually get what you pay for. That being said I did a job for a retired couple, a big job, 14 dead pines, 2 of them small, the rest 60'-90'. 3 were heavy leaners over the house. They had gotten many bids, all well over 5k. I was the only one who suggested falling it all full length, onto the beech in front of thier house. Some I just fell, the rest ropes, or a steel cable and a Tirfor. I know a "real" arborist could have roped down all the branches and tops and blocks, but why? They were very happy with what I did, and saved thousands. Think about this, do you ask people this question "If I put some holes in your lawn, I will charge you way less, does that sound allright?" A guy who pounds all the wood down fast isn't always a hack, many customers just want to pay for production. And lawns ain't sacred ground, blessed by the Pope and all that. I do know how to rig, I have done it over high-voltage, where there is no room for error, I just don't like being in a tree for very long.

 

[OTG BOSTON]

nice to see you're back

You usually get what you pay for. That being said I did a job for a retired couple, a big job, 14 dead pines, 2 of them small, the rest 60'-90'. 3 were heavy leaners over the house. They had gotten many bids, all well over 5k. I was the only one who suggested falling it all full length, onto the beech in front of thier house. Some I just fell, the rest ropes, or a steel cable and a Tirfor. I know a "real" arborist could have roped down all the branches and tops and blocks, but why? They were very happy with what I did, and saved thousands. Think about this, do you ask people this question "If I put some holes in your lawn, I will charge you way less, does that sound allright?" A guy who pounds all the wood down fast isn't always a hack, many customers just want to pay for production. And lawns ain't sacred ground, blessed by the Pope and all that. I do know how to rig, I have done it over high-voltage, where there is no room for error, I just don't like being in a tree for very long.

And I agree, I don't like to be in the tree for very long if I can help it.

 

[Ed Roland]

You usually get what you pay for. That being said I did a job for a retired couple, a big job, 14 dead pines, 2 of them small, the rest 60'-90'. 3 were heavy leaners over the house. They had gotten many bids, all well over 5k. I was the only one who suggested falling it all full length, onto the beech in front of thier house. Some I just fell, the rest ropes, or a steel cable and a Tirfor. I know a "real" arborist could have roped down all the branches and tops and blocks, but why? They were very happy with what I did, and saved thousands. Think about this, do you ask people this question "If I put some holes in your lawn, I will charge you way less, does that sound allright?" A guy who pounds all the wood down fast isn't always a hack, many customers just want to pay for production. And lawns ain't sacred ground, blessed by the Pope and all that. I do know how to rig, I have done it over high-voltage, where there is no room for error, I just don't like being in a tree for very long.

I hear u, clearance.
Yet, flopping whole trees, especially leaners, with a house as a target is more of a hazard than climbing and lowering the debris in a controlled fashion. Of course if the tree can be flopped that saves time, therefore $. I do it the hard way by climbing and lowering with a friction device. I charge accordingly. I win some, I lose some.

 

[ozy365]

Its been said before: Charge twice as much in order to work half as often. If you want to do all rigging, charge accordingly. A lot of rural area around here, so there are a lot of requests for flop and drop. Also a hell of a lot of former forest trees that have become yard trees...tons of vertical, nasty v crotches and the only limb walking is vertical...way more fun to drop than to climb. 4" and under for the last third of height.

 

[booboo]

Around here, the hacks who usually are uninsured will generally bid 1/3 - 1/2 under what we bid. We always make sure that we tell the client that we will include a copy of the cert with the proposal if they would like. We also recommend that they shop around because they might actually get a better price (from the crane crews...that's a long winded rant I've been saving up for), but we also tell them to request certs and references. They usually come back to us, sometimes they do get a better price from a legit outfit, and if they go with a lowballer, they get what they pay for and this probably isn't someone we wanted to work for anyway.

However, a cert by itself doesn't even mean a whole lot. We had a case here last year where some loggers were using forged certs. Yep, they got busted, that was only part of thier issues and several of them are now resting comfortably in prison.

The crane rant is coming soon, it's been building for a while...watched part of another crane job yesterday that was just plain stupid...

:help:

 

[treeseer]

I was the only one who suggested falling it all full length, onto the beech in front of thier house. .

clearance I agreed with your post except I don't understand how you can fell dead pines onto a beech without destroying the beech.

 

[diltree]

Treeseer.....

I think our boy clearance was referring to the beach you get a tan on and check out chicks with bikinis hoping for a thong sighting.......:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[diltree]

One more thing Asplundh under bid me on a town contract today....I hate those orange trucks!!!!!

 

[Ekka]

I know a "real" arborist could have roped down all the branches and tops and blocks, but why?

Clearance, a real arborist would have considered all the options and felling is the first especially on a dead tree. Also it should be pretty much part of the standard discussion on the level of impact one can make upon the landscape. In these parts most lawn is just dust and far from sacred.

I even ask customers if I can flatten small plants etc as it affects price. If they say no and not a leaf to be touched then the price goes up accordingly.

What you did was spot on IMHO, and felling is always faster.

It will always be hard when it comes to removals due to price, but ask the client what they'll tolerate as far as which method you will use. Costs can change considerably.

 

[soutz]

You know what you have to charge to make a profit and stay in biz. that is what matters. if these guys undercut they have a small life span. stay strong. dont ever go below that money line you need, if you do you are saying you are worth less and you will cut corners to make up time, then safety goes out the window.

 

[treeseer]

...clearance was referring to the beach you get a tan

OOooooooohh, beAch, what a difference a letter makes.

I just looked at a dead hickory yesterday. The only felling angle is across a pond and onto a wooden bulkhead and a concrete driveway. We will build a landing pad and fell it and save the client 50%.

 

[Dadatwins]

One more thing Asplundh under bid me on a town contract today....I hate those orange trucks!!!!!

I can almost understand a company like that working at cost just to keep thier people employed and trucks rolling. They wait for a storm somewhere and then sock it to whomever to make it all back. I am at a loss as to why someone would be willing to work below cost, take the risk involved and not make any $$$. It is amazing that when a pipe breaks in a house, folks will pay whatever it takes to the first guy that actually shows up to fix it. When it comes to tree-work they will call 20 people and wait until the lowest number comes in to get the work done. I knew this customer was price shopping as they told me so on the phone, but it was a recomendation and close to the house so not a big deal for me take a look. I generally tell price shoppers that I WILL NOT be the cheapest price on the job, but will do the job correctly and not cut corners. If they insist on looking for just the cheapest price then I wish them luck and will save the trip and not look at the work. My red flag now on calls are those that start the conversation by asking about a 'free estimate'. end rant :bang: