Welder, Welding questions for log splitter

[Metals406]

You can get away w/ a 20 degree downhill on a 7018, but not much more, it's too hard to stay ahead of the puddle, and doesn't have much strength. Uphill is good tho. Downhill really isn't good for anything but maybe to put a nice cap on an otherwise cobby looking uphill. Works OK on thin stuff. That's why the 6011 is a good junk rod, you can really control the puddle, since it freezes so fast. And will weld anything, thats why it's the ultimate "farmers rod" lol. Welding flat, the 7024 or 7014 is a nice rod.

Yup, that's what I was saying... I'm friends with a pipe welder, that can weld sheet metal all day long with 1/8" 7018. He's a really good welder, with many years of experience.

He can do things with 7018, that I can't do...

 

[gink595]

Gink, I'd have to look again, but I think a guy can get away with 20° or 25° downhill with 7018... And have it be a passable weld. Obviously for thinner stock... Staying ahead of the puddle so it doesn't run-out.

Also, I think we've all seen the 'farmer Johnny' welds that are 60+ years old, on a farm implement. The welds look like a chicken took a big dump on the steel--yet it's held for all those years?

Also, look under your truck at the DOT welds that 'pass'... Scary looking things! A lot of factors go into a strong weld, and most of it isn't something you can check after the fact visually.

I did some structural welds on a job, that were fixies. The 'Union' welder couldn't do a "Chinese Vert" to save his life. It was my job to go burn out his welds, and make a pretty cap. Would his ugly welds have been strong enough? Probably would have been fine... But the contractor needed to pass a 'visual' inspection.

Yes quite possible but like you said stay ahead of the flux puddle and trying to locate what your weld is doing!! 20*-25* is 5.5:12 slope so that is a bit generous from ful vert. I avoid vert. down with 7018, I hit the sides of the fillet and stay out of the middle heat and retreat and go like hell!

 

[Metals406]

Yes quite possible but like you said stay ahead of the flux puddle and trying to locate what your weld is doing!! 20*-25* is 5.5:12 slope so that is a bit generous from ful vert. I avoid vert. down with 7018, I hit the sides of the fillet and stay out of the middle heat and retreat and go like hell!

Oh I agree, it's just a good technique to keep in your pocket. I've used it on a trailer, welding thinner material. You can only run the amps down on 1/8" 7018 so far, before it doesn't weld for nuttin'. I was hovering around 90 amps DC, and able to stay ahead of the slag, and get good pen and bead appearance. Welding uphill I would have had burn-through.

Like I said, handy to know for certain instances.

 

[fishercat]

agreed on the 6013

Dont want to go into an argue about the 6013 rod. It was intended as a sheet metal rod and works as such BUT also more than that.
Yes the 7018 has better properties.

6013 is my general purpose rod and for a beginner might help to get the handling much faster. 7018 can be a pain and needs much better skills and preparation but makes stronger welds.

For structural welding i do use both in combination for multi pass welds. Lot of discussion to be made about it and i think this is not the right place for it but i would not send a novice in the woods with a 7018 as first rod. Slack inclusion can be a bad as a weak MIG weld... etc

Regarding penetration, make sure your welder has the juice in it and you will penetrate equally with both rods, just using different settings for each.
I noticed that it makes a big difference in appreciation of these rods between a 220/380 based weldor (eg europe) and a 110/220 (eg US) based weldor.

for good structural welds,a combination of the two rods with multiple passes is the way to go.anyone who has been to trained and has worked in structural welding knows this.

 

[AIM]

I'm a huge fan of 6011 for all the reasons everyone has stated.
I'll admit I'm lazy about grinding torch slag off and doing "PROPER" fit ups. 6011 will just melt all that crap down into the weld doesn't seem to bother it. Plus I'm lazy about grinding off slag prior to multiple passes and 6011 seems to just burn right through it. "farmer rod all the way"
Don't get me wrong though, when it's gotta be done strong and proper, I do it right.
Years back I got ahold of some oddball rod from a shop auction. 10 sticks of this/ 20 of that/ etc. Must have been 20 different rod in the mix. Some yellow stuff. Some red fluxed stuff, and other rod that I had never seen before, all with real odd designations. (I can't remember what the numbers were off hand)
Anyways a guy at the auction told me that some of the rod was SUPER expensive stuff. I played with that stuff off and on for a few years and I gotta say it was COOL stuff. (I just can't remember the brand)
To this day I don't know what any of it was designed to be for, but it was fun to play with.

 

[AIM]

I had to go out and dig through the cabinet and low and behold I found one last stray stick of the red rod.
"Certanium"
This stuff has got to be 15 years old now.

 

[chub]

welder

The sae 200 is one of the finest pipe welders out there,however if your looking for a great all around welder with generator posibilities I would recommend the Ranger 9,250, if your a lincoln man. If you like Millers I would go with a trailblazer ,that is what I have ,and love it for what I do. Any of those stick rods will be fine if you prepare the joint correctly[meaning bevel all the joints so you can get full penitration],the 7018 is a grat rod but it is not super high penitrating either. One tip I will give you is dont use the dumb excuse that this rod will burn thru anything, instead do what everone should do and take the time to prepare and clean the weld joints as if you were going to eat off them,this will save you alot of headaches later. I would also stay away from mig, as many have said it is just to easy to make a pretty bead that is superficial. It is hard to beat an old ideal arc 250 for the money if you dont mind using a plug in model. Good luck in selecting a welder ask more questions if we did not answer them. Chub

 

[BIG JAKE]

r0858-Here's a couple of things you can do that might help you gain more knowledge. Find some dealers who sell E.G. Lincoln or Miller. Tell them what you want to weld and they'll show you the units that apply. A dealer near me will actually let you weld with certain machines to try them out. In your case that might not tell you alot but the point is you'll boil it down to a class of machines, but most of all listen and learn. Write stuff down. Also, when I started I got a couple of books from Lincoln Electric one called "new lessons in arc welding" and a big fat book called arc welding. Library may have some books also. What you'll find is that welding is quite a science. The books I have show you patterns to use for up and down welds and lots of pictures showing good and bad welds caused by poor technique or good technique also bad welds from not enough amperage or too much, shielding issues, etc. It's all there including formulas and charts for strength ratings in PSI etc, electrode types. When you boil it down to a few models in (insert brand here) then you can look at what's out there second hand. Something that looks new might be a better option but not always-I'd try to find a fairly new rig from I guy that didn't use it much(judgement call). If you can befriend a guy who can really weld take him along to try out prospective machine so you don't get a POS with problems dumped on you. For experience, local steel shops that sheer plate will usually give or sell you "drops" which are small scraps or plate sections left over from sheer cuts for other customers. Get 1/2'' plate or whatever and practice using rods suitable for what you want to do and practice. Maybe trade labor also for some learning time at the weld shop or like you said take a class. I like your thinking though you can buy a machine you'll have for a lifetime with labor you'll save. Lot's to learn and good luck, but I'll reinforce what was said here splitters generate a lot of force be careful and learn so you do it right! Keep us posted.

 

[Spotted Owl]

AC/DC? Whats the bonus to a DC machine? All I have ever used is an ancient red box AC. Dad had one and thats how I learned and now I have one and thats what I use. That old beast is getting older and will probably need replacing soon. Thats why I ask, what does DC do for you that AC doesn't?


Owl

 

[142TN]

my 2 cent are that unless you are in a production work you do not need a mig. I have been a certified welder for over 10 years and it takes a lot of time to be able to run a mig weld that is as strong as stick. as for tig if you are going to be doing alum or thin stainless that the way to go. but for most welding at home get a stick 250 ac/dc miller or lincoln and just get to welding.

 

[fishercat]

i prefer DC.

much better to weld with when you grasp it.biggest thing people who are new to DC is starting the burn.just takes a little practice.

the two most important things to make you a better welder are getting comfortable and an auto darkening helmet.you get what you pay for with the latter.the more you spend,usually the better you get.used ones can be had reasonable.you only have one set of eyes and screwing around with a POS sheild will only aggrivate you and waste precious time you could be using to become a better welder.

 

[r0858]

Thanx for the tips big jake

Thanx big jake and to the rest of you guys. I planned to buy this linconl sa200 from a friend for about 1200 bucks, its in good shape and he needs the money right now. So the price is the reason I was leaning toward it.

I have been looking around on ebay and crags list, havent seen much that i could get in that range. I would like a good all around welder if i could get one
reasonably.

most of my log splitter parts i used to get off ebay, but for somepeople run the price of the stuff (2 sage pumps, cylinders, honda motors) to almost retail prices and defeats the purpose of buying it there..

thanx for all the advice..im printing all these threds out, reading and re-reading b4 i make my purchase, keep them coming.. Thanks!

r0858-Here's a couple of things you can do that might help you gain more knowledge. Find some dealers who sell E.G. Lincoln or Miller. Tell them what you want to weld and they'll show you the units that apply. A dealer near me will actually let you weld with certain machines to try them out. In your case that might not tell you alot but the point is you'll boil it down to a class of machines, but most of all listen and learn. Write stuff down. Also, when I started I got a couple of books from Lincoln Electric one called "new lessons in arc welding" and a big fat book called arc welding. Library may have some books also. What you'll find is that welding is quite a science. The books I have show you patterns to use for up and down welds and lots of pictures showing good and bad welds caused by poor technique or good technique also bad welds from not enough amperage or too much, shielding issues, etc. It's all there including formulas and charts for strength ratings in PSI etc, electrode types. When you boil it down to a few models in (insert brand here) then you can look at what's out there second hand. Something that looks new might be a better option but not always-I'd try to find a fairly new rig from I guy that didn't use it much(judgement call). If you can befriend a guy who can really weld take him along to try out prospective machine so you don't get a POS with problems dumped on you. For experience, local steel shops that sheer plate will usually give or sell you "drops" which are small scraps or plate sections left over from sheer cuts for other customers. Get 1/2'' plate or whatever and practice using rods suitable for what you want to do and practice. Maybe trade labor also for some learning time at the weld shop or like you said take a class. I like your thinking though you can buy a machine you'll have for a lifetime with labor you'll save. Lot's to learn and good luck, but I'll reinforce what was said here splitters generate a lot of force be careful and learn so you do it right! Keep us posted.

 

[r0858]

thanx these are some very good tips, do u think 1200 is too much for a lincoln sa200.. just trying to stretch my dollars

The sae 200 is one of the finest pipe welders out there,however if your looking for a great all around welder with generator posibilities I would recommend the Ranger 9,250, if your a lincoln man. If you like Millers I would go with a trailblazer ,that is what I have ,and love it for what I do. Any of those stick rods will be fine if you prepare the joint correctly[meaning bevel all the joints so you can get full penitration],the 7018 is a grat rod but it is not super high penitrating either. One tip I will give you is dont use the dumb excuse that this rod will burn thru anything, instead do what everone should do and take the time to prepare and clean the weld joints as if you were going to eat off them,this will save you alot of headaches later. I would also stay away from mig, as many have said it is just to easy to make a pretty bead that is superficial. It is hard to beat an old ideal arc 250 for the money if you dont mind using a plug in model. Good luck in selecting a welder ask more questions if we did not answer them. Chub

 

[John D]

I had to go out and dig through the cabinet and low and behold I found one last stray stick of the red rod.
"Certanium"
This stuff has got to be 15 years old now.

I used to buy certanium,it was incredible stuff! I still have the cabinet it came in,not sure if the company still exists.Business is to slow to pay that much for welding rods now. The slag would pop off by itself,after a pass.

 

[AIM]

According to the internet they are still out there makin rod. They have some 120,000 stuff etc.
I've never welded anything requiring that sort of strength but it sure was fun to play with.

BTW... Any of you welders ever hard surface dozer tracks. That right there is boredom at it's finest!!!
I worked for a decent sized construction company for about 8 years and for about the last three winters I had to do tracks, buckets, etc.
I didn't REALLY know the science behind it so they would just mark them out and hand me the rod and say weld it...
6 zillion rods later I was done..

I gotta think it's all done with a wire welder now.

 

[Scootermsp]

Night School

I found a local tech school that had a night school welding program. It was tue-thur nights for 7 weeks in the Fall a couple years ago. It was well worth the money and I use knowledge aquired at the school everyday in my job....I inspect lots of welds on Cargo tanks.
Also like chainsawing personal protective equip is essential. Invest in a good auto-darkening helmet, wear safety glasses under that helmet (spatter will make it in sometimes, wear earplugs (there are sounds made from welding that you CANNOT hear, but will absolutely devastate your hearing), LONG sleeves, Welding gloves, Button up shirt, ALL COTTON!!!!! If you don't cover every square inch you will have a nice sunburn, Synthetic fabrics will melt and burn YOU underneath. Steel toe leather boots...etc you get the idea

 

[Metals406]

I have to disagree with most of what is being said about MIG here. It is most definitely used for structural welds, and used for that purpose everyday.

Lets make some distinctions: Hardwire (like ER70-6) is plenty strong for most fabrication work, especially when used in conjunction with A-36. A good 75%/25% gas mix is used, or a tri-mix.

Now, if you want a little more penetration, in shielded gas welding, try the new metal cored wire... Less spatter, and better pen.

Another option is a dual-shield wire. This stuff welds like 7018, but with the speed of wire feed. I've used it on structural jobs, where the weld yield had to be higher than hardwire could provide.

Then we have flux-cored wire... This welding process has really come into it's own in the last few years. It has replaced arc welding in a lot of structural welding applications. It meets most of the weld yield prerequisites for structural building fabrication/erection, and applications like bridges and shipbuilding. Not too long ago, there was a good article in, I think, F&M Magazine about a ship yard in Seattle--and the amount of production and profit they've gained by phasing out of stick, and into wire. I've welded a lot of stuff with flux-cored.

When used in the correct manner, there is absolutely nothing wrong with MIG welding/wire welding... The defense offers Gink's pictures of his splitter as evidence.

 

[blackdoggy]

BUT you must remember MOST not all but MOST of those units are 3 phase and cost several thousand dollars which is out of the league of most common users. So far from what I can tell from this thread the member who started it is on a fairly tight budget and is new to welding both of which counts out mig. If you look at the cost of a new or if possible used 220V machine (not wired for three phase), the cost of a spool of wire, gas, gas lease, and tips your looking at several thousand dollars . Now with arc welding and a used machine your looking at really the cost of leads, stinger, ground clamp, and welder for less than $2,500 including a tank of fuel and rods. Which could be even less if the guy is throwing in the complete leads and some rods, arc welding seems to be the only option in this case.

 

[KD57]

We run a bunch of 400 amp MIGS in our shop, flux core wire. It is all structural fabrication, all AWS inspected, w/ near zero failures. A good MIG welder will stomp a stick welder into the ground w/ production rates. No slag clean-up either. Our welders run 120 lbs per day, sometimes more. Stick has its place, and it's not in a high production shop. We use them for tacking only.

 

[tatra805]

AC/DC? Whats the bonus to a DC machine? All I have ever used is an ancient red box AC. Dad had one and thats how I learned and now I have one and thats what I use. That old beast is getting older and will probably need replacing soon. Thats why I ask, what does DC do for you that AC doesn't?


Owl

Owl,

DC welding makes you trigger an arc from-to instead of alternating as in AC.

To explain,

DC- :current flows from - to +, with the ground clamp being + the arc goes to the workpiece and melts the workpiece more than it melts the rod.
Deep penetration and more weld per rod length.

DC +: rod attached to + , groundclamp to -, arc goes from workpiece to rod, melting the rod faster / more than the workpiece resulting in less penetration and more material deposit. used for thin materials, to avoid warping and heat sensitive combinations (eg 2 metal types with big expansion differences) to avoid internal stress build up.

It in other words gives you a heat direction : to or from rod. whereas the AC just alternates between rod and workpiece and leaves you with less control of the weld. Also voltage and current settings are different for DC and AC welding to get to similar results.

In the more complex welders (DC exists in both rod and wire welding) you can set timing of AC, dc+, dc- and in automated systems even the switching between the modes (strike arc in ac then switch to dc) etc