Anybody Use an Automatic Chain Sharpener?

[Philbert]

I've seen some videos of the Franzen automatic chain sharpener YouTube - ‪Obermeier Franzen Video-"Cutting Edge Technology"‬‏ (others on YouTube if you search), and the Dinasaw that Bailey's sells: Bailey's - Dinasaw T-Rex Automatic Chain Sharpener

Curious if any A.S. members have any experience with these?

I've never really understood how shops make any money sharpening chains for $5 to $7, if they do it right. So an automated machine makes sense from a labor savings. But with the costs of these machines ($4,000 for Dinasaw, Franzen $???), maintenance, power, supplies, etc., the payback seems a long way off unless you are sharpening 24/7.

I'd love to hear from anyone who has used, or is using one; if there are other advantages; or when they start to make economic sense.

Thanks.

Philbert

 

[Dan_IN_MN]

Phil

I don't have any experience in using an automatic chain sharpener. However, reading about the Grindomatic V12 they claim that the savings in not having to replace bars, powerheads, and such the unit will pay for it's self...

 

[Andyshine77]

Most shops use the cheap grinders you can buy from Bailey's, and most of the time they do a really poor job. The grinder in the vid was likely overheating the teeth, common with that type of grinder and stone used, It's extremely hard not to overheat the teeth with a small grinder like that, the large Silvey grinders seem to work well however.

 

[masculator]

try Vallorbe, it has a wooden handle is about a foot long and is quick accurate and doesn't heat effect the steel.

 

[David (saltas)]

how does an automated sharpener give a slight kiss to a almost sharp chain and sharpen a chain that was rocked or used in the dirt to cut roots.

It would take an operator to set it up different for each chains needs.

It will only be a time saver it you set it once and forget and that means those sparks are you $ being ground away.

I File and grind my own chains and have never seen so many sparks when grinding a chain.

anyone else so heavy handed with a grinder?

 

[Edge & Engine]

Cuttinscott has one (Franzen) at their shop. It's a pretty slick machine.

 

[Philbert]

I found these older threads . . .

I found some threads from a few years back -

Cuttinscott: http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/67658.htm

Fish: http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/39580.htm

but was curious about more recent experiences, or from people who have used them for some time now. Also interested in the Dinasaw machine that Bailey's sells. Not that I am looking to buy one right now!

Would like to know how they hold up, if they do a good job, etc. $20,000 + (estimated Franzen cost) is a lot to recoup at $7 per chain before making your first dollar of profit. But if they do a good job, free up an employee, and you have the volume, I guess they could make sense.

If I bought one for a shop I would place it on my showroom floor to attract business and generate 'buzz', instead of in the back room, where the insurance guys would want it.

Might have to compare that business cost against one of comparable size, say the cost of replacing a pickup truck, versus comparing it to a $400, or even $1,000 grinder.

I saw that they also have an automatic machine for removing burrs from drive links!

Philbert

 

[Dan_IN_MN]

Phil

What is your interest in the automatic sharpeners?

 

[Philbert]

What is your interest in the automatic sharpeners?

Just curious. Wondered how well they worked and where/when they made sense. Wonder if you could set up a retirement business with one, like the Foley-Belsaw ads used to claim.

I know how long it takes me to do a good job on a chain with a standard grinder. I would like to learn any tricks that others have to work faster in a production setting.

A few guys have mentioned foot pedals, hydraulic clamps, the CBN wheels, etc. The automatic grinders take this to another level!

Philbert

 

[TK]

It all depends on how much sharpening the shop does on a regular basis as to whether the automatic ones will save them any money. I think the Franzen is only worth it if you are sharpening 1-2 dozen or more every day. If you figure the $7 basis to sharpen a chain at a shop - they actually lose money due to the amount of time it takes to do it vs. the typical shop labor rate. They could be doing something else for far more profit. Add the cost of the grinder, wheels, dedicated space for it, etc. and it's a losing battle. It's just something most places have to offer to keep some people coming through the door to make other purchases.

A lot of what people see on the chain for "heat" is oil and sawdust on the chain and that is what is burning. Teeth still get overheated too but a lot of that burning is other crap.

I haven't had any chains come back with complaints of them not being sharp enough or burnt. Too bad there aren't any of you guys near me :msp_thumbdn:

 

[Philbert]

Too bad there aren't any of you guys near me

Your analysis makes sense. Do you think if you had that kind of machine in the middle of your showroom, that it would attract more people bringing in their chains, even as a novelty? Put it in a Lexan booth, set up a coffee bar around it, . . .

According to Fish's post (referenced above), the 'automatic' machines still take some skill and knowledge to run effectively. That should address some of the burning concerns.

If I ever am in Maine, where about are you (and can I get there from here?).

Philbert

 

[cowroy]

TK power

What type of grinder do you use?

 

[Fish]

I talk to Mr. Franzen every year, he is a great guy, getting english down pat.........

I used one at the"Mower Shop" in Louisville.....

 

[TK]

What type of grinder do you use?

Oregon 511ax. I used to have an old Efco but it just wore out and wasn't grinding as precise as I wanted.

Your analysis makes sense. Do you think if you had that kind of machine in the middle of your showroom, that it would attract more people bringing in their chains, even as a novelty? Put it in a Lexan booth, set up a coffee bar around it, . . .

According to Fish's post (referenced above), the 'automatic' machines still take some skill and knowledge to run effectively. That should address some of the burning concerns.

If I ever am in Maine, where about are you (and can I get there from here?).

Philbert

I don't think having the machine in the showroom would change anything. The people that would be attracted to the display would be the ones who run the 91 series chains and provide me with 1 to 2 sharpenings per year at most and have no spare chains. The folks who do serious cutting and really want a sharp chain every time because they depend on it don't care what the heck sharpens the chain - so long as it is sharp. A muskrat with safety glasses could be at the grinder and they wouldn't care as long as it was done right.

Onto the fact that the automated machines still take time and skill to operate: Why the heck do we want a machine that takes time and skill to operate when we want to get away from a machine that takes time and skill to operate? If you've got 12 chains to sharpen at one time, you still have to stop what you're doing and go swap chains on the machine as well as inspect the chain that came off to make sure that it is done properly. If I were to invest a ton of money in a chain sharpener I would want it to be able to be run by anyone in the shop and I would have to be able to trust it.

I'm in southern Maine, where most would call northern Massachusetts. Right on the glorious road that is US Route 1. Anyone who wants to stop by if they're in the area feel free to PM me, I'd be more than happy to brew a fresh pot.

 

[Philbert]

I used one at the"Mower Shop" in Louisville.....

Fish,

I found your posts after I asked the question, and posted those links. Your comments about still needing to understand chain, and how to adjust the 'automatic' machine were very interesting.

Philbert

 

[Andyshine77]

Fish,

I found your posts after I asked the question, and posted those links. Your comments about still needing to understand chain, and how to adjust the 'automatic' machine were very interesting.

Philbert

Very true.

One needs to understand the average Joe wouldn't know a sharp chain if it hit him in the face:msp_wink:. For most these grinders will do a fine job, but like others said it will take years to recoup you're money with some of these high dollar machines.

 

[MAD MAX]

Never saw an atoumatic but have seen lots of grinders. My experiance is that silvey is by far the best grinder. But I personally like a filed chain better. I never had a ground chain cut like my filed chains. Grinding is as much a skill as filing anything automated would make me suspect but I am old school I guess

 

[Fish]

The Franzen is a great machine, but it is not as effortless as
advertized. The only ones that really believe that are the big shop
owners that have paid for them, and have a large turnover of 2-cycle mechanics.

As far as the large turnover of 2 cycle techs, they don't care, as their family members are in the company doing something brain;less
and comfortable.

The "Stihl" guy is the least respected man in the shop in most midwestern shops, as his "numbers" don't measure up to the
"ztr" techs, and he is also burdened with "sharpening", which
when done correctly, or even incorrectly, takes time.
The Franzen does a good job in most cases, but it takes time, skill, and knowledge to use.
The shop owners that buy the machine are led to believe that the
sales reps that go out back for a cigarrette every 15 minutes
can sharpen the chains, but they can't, won't, etc...

So the chain duties fall upon the stihl techs, and their labor dollar numbers suffer, and they are treated poorly.
Not franzen's fault, just how it is.

sorry, but I digressed.....