Cutting cylinder bases

[Stihl 041S]

We are near eachother. I have been looking at that lathes and recall seeing this one out near Rochester I believe. I've been looking at everything in NY lol. I'm hoping to spend $1000 or less and really want a nice little bench top Southbend Atlas, Rockwell or Hardinge. Finding one not beat, single phase, has 3 and 4 jaw chucks and tools in that price range is challenging. I'm happy I found this thread because I wasn't sure how large of a swing I needed.

If you want a good machine.......get a Good, and I say GOOD, machine rebuilder to go along with you.....probably $75 an hour.
He can tell you what is wrong and what it will cost to fix it.
Great bargaining chip. And it is so hard to see the little things that are wrong and the owner may not know.
Many older machines there are NO repair parts.
Or pricey.
On one 12x30 I had it was $3500 for the head bearings......not counting installations.....20 years ago.
Buyer be where.
And skip CNC at first. There is so much to learn before you can make it worth it.
DON’T buy a big tooling package.
So much used and 80% of the package you won’t use or will replace.
Marshy.....PM when you get close......I know tooling.
And got some for ya.

 

[Marshy]

If you want a good machine.......get a Good, and I say GOOD, machine rebuilder to go along with you.....probably $75 an hour.
He can tell you what is wrong and what it will cost to fix it.
Great bargaining chip. And it is so hard to see the little things that are wrong and the owner may not know.
Many older machines there are NO repair parts.
Or pricey.
On one 12x24 I had it was $3500 for the head bearings......not counting installations.....20 years ago.
Buyer be where.
And skip CNC at first. There is so much to learn before you can make it worth it.
DON’T buy a big tooling package.
So much used and 80% of the package you won’t use or will replace.
Marshy.....PM when you get close......I know tooling.
And got some for ya.

Good advice and thank you for your offer.

 

[Deleted member 149229]

If you want a good machine.......get a Good, and I say GOOD, machine rebuilder to go along with you.....probably $75 an hour.
He can tell you what is wrong and what it will cost to fix it.
Great bargaining chip. And it is so hard to see the little things that are wrong and the owner may not know.
Many older machines there are NO repair parts.
Or pricey.
On one 12x24 I had it was $3500 for the head bearings......not counting installations.....20 years ago.
Buyer be where.
And skip CNC at first. There is so much to learn before you can make it worth it.
DON’T buy a big tooling package.
So much used and 80% of the package you won’t use or will replace.
Marshy.....PM when you get close......I know tooling.
And got some for ya.

All good advice here. Doing job shop type work getting started and a good manual machine is to your advantage. And yes, tooling packages sound great until you only use a few. There are some great old lathes and mills out there but to @Stihl 041S point, a repair can kill you having a custom part made.

 

[Marshy]

My old shop teacher use to tell us, "a lathe is the only machine that can reproduce utself"... Well not quite but you get the idea.

 

[Stihl 041S]

My old shop teacher use to tell us, "a lathe is the only machine that can reproduce utself"... Well not quite but you get the idea.

He was talking manual.

 

[Stihl 041S]

All good advice here. Doing job shop type work getting started and a good manual machine is to your advantage. And yes, tooling packages sound great until you only use a few. There are some great old lathes and mills out there but to @Stihl 041S point, a repair can kill you having a custom part made.

Yeah.....so much great Old Iron out there......a good machine rebuilder can find you a great machine maybe. It is his world.

 

[Stihl 041S]

Don’t be scared of a larger lathe.
You can get 3 phase 3 different ways.
And movers are bonded.
They can place it so easily.

And old iron is worth it. A smoothness that cant be imagined.
A little 12x30 will weigh a bit more.....2000+ at the bottom end.
Henceforth the digger idea. Lol

 

[Marshy]

No, your exactly right. I've seen some larger engine lathes for $2k. You get 3x the machine for twice the money. I use to have my favorite lathe in shop class, a Monarch, big engine lathe. I dont think any of the students wanted to use it because the teacher made us remove the chucks when not in use and no one wanted to wrestle with the larger chuck.

 

[logger450]

I'm currently infatuated with this one but its $700 more than I want to spend.
https://syracuse.craigslist.org/tls/d/forest-city-south-bend-metal-lathe/6780027095.html

The Logan is in Troy. I am not ready to buy so you can take a look at the Logan if you want. Where is Mexico, NY? I'm guessing in the Adirondacks

 

[logger450]

If you want a good machine.......get a Good, and I say GOOD, machine rebuilder to go along with you.....probably $75 an hour.
He can tell you what is wrong and what it will cost to fix it.
Great bargaining chip. And it is so hard to see the little things that are wrong and the owner may not know.
Many older machines there are NO repair parts.
Or pricey.
On one 12x30 I had it was $3500 for the head bearings......not counting installations.....20 years ago.
Buyer be where.
And skip CNC at first. There is so much to learn before you can make it worth it.
DON’T buy a big tooling package.
So much used and 80% of the package you won’t use or will replace.
Marshy.....PM when you get close......I know tooling.
And got some for ya.

It sounds like a new Grizzly would be the way to go then for $1250. If I take a $600 gamble on and older used one and it needs work it could cost a lot more in the long run.

 

[logger450]

A 9" swing will allow you to grab nearly any chainsaw cylinder and 18-24" bed length will suffice.

The tooling is almost more important. Obviously the lathe should be in good condition, but an independent 4 jaw chuck, quick change tool post, tool holders cutting tools and live center are just as important. A boring bar will be necessary for cutting squish. Having a couple machinist friends might be even more important in the early stages.

If you're only interested in doing saw work, you can sometimes rent time on a lathe and not have all the up front costs.

I recently went through the whole process (it's ongoing) so PM me if you have questions, maybe I can help.

Lathes are really great!

Grizzly has a 9" swing lathe for $1250 I think I will contact them when it's time and make sure it has a 4 jaw chuck and quick change tooling. I might be contacting you to see what tooling I should have. I would like to try making some popups for the 359 saw in the future

 

[drf255]

My only advise would be to get the biggest you can fit and afford.

At least by me, the prices are like a Bell curve. The cheap little HF ones are worthless, then comes the nice 6-10" ones. The really big ones are too heavy to move or power and generally don't cost what they are worth.

I had an Atlas 618 I had to redo. It cost me around $700 all in after mods and I sold it for that same price. I went with a new OTMT China lathe and I've been happy. It's an 8" lathe but I wish it was bigger. The new jugs, with stratos and bottom fed transfers, can get quite big to swing and make a full base and extension cut on.

Also, make your mandrels at least 12" long. It helps avoid interference with the chuck during cuts because your tooling will be away from the area.

My $.02

 

[Frank Rizzo]

It sounds like a new Grizzly would be the way to go then for $1250. If I take a $600 gamble on and older used one and it needs work it could cost a lot more in the long run.

Yah , it’s a nice little machine , for decking cylinders and making small parts it’s robust enough to do the job for sure ... variable speed chuck is also a great assistance for getting the SFM you need for great finishes ... here’s a machined aluminum adapter I made for the 241,261,362 series ... allows you to run a k/n filter and easily switch back to stock if desired (but after using the k/n I don’t think you wood want to lol !)

 

[Ketchup]

The mentioned tooling can run anywhere from $400 to thousands so getting tooling in any deal is a big plus. An old lathe with no tooling for $600 + may end up being more expensive than a new one all set up for $1400.

If you don't have milling capabilities, fitting your tools will be an additional cost to a machine shop.

As mentioned above, you want long mandrels for base cutting. Also not free...

 

[Stihl 041S]

It sounds like a new Grizzly would be the way to go then for $1250. If I take a $600 gamble on and older used one and it needs work it could cost a lot more in the long run.

But there are great ones out there.
Just need to get it looked at.
And the build level of the old ones is beyond what you can afford new.
One of the machines I run was built in the late 60s. Runs 2 shifts a day.....had the cross slide rescraped last year. ONLY repair beyond rapids chains, no big deal, in the 18 years I’ve been there.

And there is so much life left in the old ones.

And there is no comparison between the feel of the old ones.

But if you can’t find a good used one.....a New one is the he best bet.

 

[catbuster]

Our shop has a 14x40 South Bend we bought new and a 40x140 Monarch. Both require three phase, which runs much smoother than single phase regardless of voltage. Admittedly, we do a lot of hydraulic work on large machines and can justify them, but I learned on a 13x40, and I always kinda felt like the small lathes didn’t quite have the horsepower to cut and run the way I learned. I guess if you learned on a small one it would be okay, but as prr the usual your mileage may vary.

My recommendation-do not buy brazed carbide tooling. A lot of people buy it, mess it up by not grinding relief or chiping the brittle carbide, and then have to eat a lot of money. Insert tooling is cool, but if you learn how to grind high speed steel you can make all of those tools much cheaper and have much more durable tooling. HSS handles rough, interrupted cuts better than carbide. The other thing is that if you figure your cutting speeds and feeds, (4xcutting speed)/diameter is a good start for spindle speed, most older lathes don’t run fast enough to really take advantage of carbide tooling.

 

[Stihl 041S]

Our shop has a 14x40 South Bend we bought new and a 40x140 Monarch. Both require three phase, which runs much smoother than single phase regardless of voltage. Admittedly, we do a lot of hydraulic work on large machines and can justify them, but I learned on a 13x40, and I always kinda felt like the small lathes didn’t quite have the horsepower to cut and run the way I learned. I guess if you learned on a small one it would be okay, but as prr the usual your mileage may vary.

My recommendation-do not buy brazed carbide tooling. A lot of people buy it, mess it up by not grinding relief or chiping the brittle carbide, and then have to eat a lot of money. Insert tooling is cool, but if you learn how to grind high speed steel you can make all of those tools much cheaper and have much more durable tooling. HSS handles rough, interrupted cuts better than carbide. The other thing is that if you figure your cutting speeds and feeds, (4xcutting speed)/diameter is a good start for spindle speed, most older lathes don’t run fast enough to really take advantage of carbide tooling.

Wise words from a fellow handle cranker.
And I agree on the brazed carbide. Unless you start real slow and get them free. Lol
Without a good diamond wheel and a good grinder those brazed carbide won’t be used long.
Learn HSS.....FEEL the machine. Get all Zen like.
I train new machinists from time to time.
The drag racers do well. They understand input from all sources. Lol

You start taking cuts and increase the load little by little.
When it start to strain and you double the HP from 30 to 60 and it smooths right out taking .700 a side it dawns on him.

And most folks doing cylinders aren’t doing much machining.
Really. It sits 99.5% of the time.

A 40x140 monarch.....wow. That will be a great ride.
Monarch was built........
We have a 12’ vertical and when it winds up you lean in to see the cutting.
From a step ladder.

 

[Frank Rizzo]

Our shop has a 14x40 South Bend we bought new and a 40x140 Monarch. Both require three phase, which runs much smoother than single phase regardless of voltage. Admittedly, we do a lot of hydraulic work on large machines and can justify them, but I learned on a 13x40, and I always kinda felt like the small lathes didn’t quite have the horsepower to cut and run the way I learned. I guess if you learned on a small one it would be okay, but as prr the usual your mileage may vary.

My recommendation-do not buy brazed carbide tooling. A lot of people buy it, mess it up by not grinding relief or chiping the brittle carbide, and then have to eat a lot of money. Insert tooling is cool, but if you learn how to grind high speed steel you can make all of those tools much cheaper and have much more durable tooling. HSS handles rough, interrupted cuts better than carbide. The other thing is that if you figure your cutting speeds and feeds, (4xcutting speed)/diameter is a good start for spindle speed, most older lathes don’t run fast enough to really take advantage of carbide tooling.

HSS when ground properly is very,very sharp! I do prefer solid - carbide boring bars with indexable inserts specifically for the material I’m cutting especially a deep blind bore such as a squish band on a cylinder ... HSS can definitely be made to work though I agree ... stay away from the red-painted harbor freight rice tooling though ... the boring bars are horrendous ! I had to heat up the shaft and twist about 20degrees as the tool was cutting in the bottom edge of the insert as purchased!

 

[logger450]

The mentioned tooling can run anywhere from $400 to thousands so getting tooling in any deal is a big plus. An old lathe with no tooling for $600 + may end up being more expensive than a new one all set up for $1400.

If you don't have milling capabilities, fitting your tools will be an additional cost to a machine shop.

As mentioned above, you want long mandrels for base cutting. Also not free...

The mentioned tooling can run anywhere from $400 to thousands so getting tooling in any deal is a big plus. An old lathe with no tooling for $600 + may end up being more expensive than a new one all set up for $1400.

If you don't have milling capabilities, fitting your tools will be an additional cost to a machine shop.

As mentioned above, you want long mandrels for base cutting. Also not free...

I will have to see what people are using for mandrels because I am not rally sure of what your explaining. I think I would slide the cylinder over the mandrel and then push the live center up against the top of cylinder. I have a machinist in the area that said he would help me when it's time. My friend at the shop just informed me that he has an old lathe he has stored inside and covered with oil that I can have with the tooling. I just hope it's not 3 phase. Doesn't hurt to look.

 

[Backyard Lumberjack]

all of this advice is good. but the bottom line is how good are you? big dif between being a machinist and being a metal worker enthusiast. even if real good at it. if it was mine, and I speak from exp, both as an owner and operator... I would want a 13X40 manual engine lathe. or thereabouts. even new, they are affordable. but, as I say... it really all depends on you. and ur skills. I know a guy and he is a retired Master Machinist... he has an older, smaller lathe in his basement. there is little he cannot do with it, other than unless swing related. but he has the knowledge, skills, education and... the experience. of course, think of ur customers, too. can you provide reworked cylinders of the highest quality?

in any event, I think this is an interesting thread. will follow to see what u decide upon. if u see a used lathe with metal brite ways... smile upon it. prob well taken care of. if rusty, dusty and musty... don't mean it hasn't, but does mean it needs some servicing. if you are not a machinist... perhaps consider becoming friends with one and/or a tool n die maker type. there are many of both in larger metro areas. and often, they work and may not have a personal machine shop. maybe couple tools. if u have a good lathe, they might help u with the set up in exchange for some machine time.

but, if u have never owned a lathe... YOU MUST DO THIS!:

never!, ever!... turn it on with the chuck key handle still in the chuck! it happens. so, always say to yourself before engaging the power; elec. ON/OFF handle... now where is the T handle? ask couple times! tossed handle can kill you! and never... be careless with your clothing. even a loose T-shirt is dangerous. I saw a guy get wrapped up in a T-shirt with another revolving shop tool. it happens. don't let it happen to you! it will be instantaneously disruptive to you!

safety first!

my 13 x 40 engine lathe