Racing Chain by Art Martin

[Gypo Logger]

Hi There, I got a nice package in the mail today from Art Martin. I couldnt wait to get it opened, so I opened it right there in the Post Office.
Art had it wraped up as any pharmasuetical house would wrap up a scalpel. I guess I looked funny coming out of the P.O.with the chain around my neck so I wouldnt hurt the cutters.
Anyway, I couldnt wait to get home, all the while thinking of what saw I should mount it on.
I chose the 2171 by Dennis, because of its outside sprocket, so I wouldnt hurt the cutters by trying to lassoo an inboard sprocket. I dont have a bar for the 357 anyway.
However, it is obvious by looking at the chain that Art has put several meticulous hours into this chain.
Ken Dunn, one of Art's close hotsaw friends, tested this particular chain on a stock saw comparable in size to the 357 and blasted thru an 11.5" Pine log in 2.7 sec. with a 7T sprocket.
I will test the chain this week when I go visit Ed Heard in Haliburton.
Art is well known in the West for his chain and it doesnt come cheap, so if you need to ask the price you cant afford it. Depending on the chain and its application, expect to pay 3-5$/ drive link.
Anyway, thanks again Art for doing the chain and to Ken doing the cut, and to Dennis for building the saw.
I will keep you posted how things go.
Cheers,
John

 

[Gypo Logger]

More pictures to come of Chain by Martin.
John

 

[Gypo Logger]

More Chain by Martin.
John

 

[Walt Galer]

Howdy John and Art,

John, I have to warn you this thing can get addictive. You are getting into the heavy stuff, that might consume the likes of you!

Remember, there is no such thing as a chain that can not be beat! If I were to have to cut against you, using the same saw and bar, (which is the most fun in my world), I would prepare an LG or a Windsor chisel:

1. See that protruding front on the depthgauge? That does not cut anything and is heavy. Get rid of it. I would grind it back into a small hooked front to help as a raker function. I would leave the top of the depthgauge and first contour alone.

2. Your chain is taken back to the back portion of the cutter. I would take the back of the cutter off, bringing it forward to mid cutter. (Exactly backwards thinking to what was done with yours!)

3. I would sharpen the cutter back about 1/3 and radically gullet the cutter out, filing even into the tops of the parts rather heavily. The tiestrap on the oposite side has lots of meat to donate between the rivets. The nearer to "doggy bone" shape you get, the better.

4. I would grind the tops off of the drivelinks that were flat topped making them relieved in between the rivets. (more chip clearence)

5. I would respin the factory rivets on a bench spinner carefully, not pressing with the takeup handle more than enough to just snug up lateral looseness from the factory a little bit. This mushes out the rivet head also and lessens drag.
Tightening up the factory assembly reduces radical working to the side and increases cutting speed. (Another complicated concept, I would have to explain).

6. I would take the grinder and take the tops off of the tiestrap pairs between drivelinks, making them "doggy bone" design tiestraps. (removes mass from the chain). Anything you do to remove mass, decreases inertial friction in the chain loop, a very important contribution! I'll explain if asked, but it is complicated).

7. Personally, I would racehorse chiselbit file the actual cutter radically thinning the topplate cutting angle. This filing is beyond the average mortal, as you have found. I would finish with a leather boot lace. I would leave the chrome alone if the chain was to be used for more than one cut. I might damage it a bit if I could exactly surface polish the working corner area, topplate and side plate. (This is radical, and not advised. The idea however is that the cutter is never sharper than the chrome is thick, and most factory cutters have way too much chrome at the working corner intersection of topplate and sideplate. Real nuts, simply remove the chrome altogether). During the chromeplate operation, the current density concentrates around the working corner, and makes for a deeper plate in this area.

I would do all of the above using an assembled chain, a chain grinder and a file. It would take mabe an hour maximum and that assuming a beer or two.
(A reasonable investment, since it is going to cost you at least a case!)

The only limit is when you grenade the chain all over any spectators. Oops! went too far!

Then when you see this chain, there is yet another level....

Regards,
Walt Galer

 

[the tree guy]

hey john how many cuts will a chain like that make before it's used up? can it be sharpened again? Dan

 

[Gypo Logger]

Hi Dan, I am no expert by any means on the subject of racing chain, but from what I understand a chain is good for several competitions since only clean knotless wood is cut. Most of the dulling is a result of improper handling and transport. One local hotsaw builder here said that several hundred cuts can be made with no appreciable notice of wood dull. Although I imagine that a custom chain can be touched up several times, I wont attempt this myself on someone elses chain, since I would probably just ruin it.
John

 

[tundraotto]

wow - that looks like a mean chain. be sure to tell us how it cuts with that greffardized jonsey. im really interested also in why art used carlton chain to begin working his magic on? i heard they make crappy chain. Also, what about kickback?

 

[sonny]

Carlton chain *** the ex west coast dist. family of Stihl.
The calton Family.

 

[Walt Galer]

Howdy,

Carlton is an independent small chain producer in Portland Oregon. The company was started by Ray Carlton, who had been cheif engineer for Oregon Saw Chain in the early 1960's.

Carlton has never been with Stihl.

Carlton chain is commonly used for contest chain modifications, and is slightly better material than most Oregon models these days. Carlton is sold by Tilton Equipment in the eastern half of the United States, and by distributors in the west, but hard to find. Carlton's web site is:

Sawchain.com

Regards,
Walt Galer

 

[tundraotto]

so is the design worse but material better on carlton?

 

[sonny]

hear we go again Walt. Cant we all just get along ? if you know the Carlton family so well Im suprised you dont know Buz.

 

[rupedoggy]

Walt, I really enjoy reading your posts because they are usually well thought out and have a lot to say. However that post about how you would make racing chain was way off the mark. Maybe your orange juice was in the sun too long! There is no way a chain as described by your post would come close to an Art Martin chain. You can't make a racing chain in an hour and do all the things you outlined. Sorry Walt you blew it big time- this time. Mike

 

[Dennis]

Rupedoggy, I am glad you read that post...I can do alot of things in an hour, especially with a case of beer...once me and a few guys talked about logging the whole valley, but only got halfway through and had to get another case...

From talking to Art a time or two, and talking to many people, I can only begin to understand about how a racing chain is constructed...but I do understand that Art is one of the foremost authorities on the subject....and I also know his work is respected throughout the continent in racing circles....

Only my 2 cents worth...(half a cent in canada)

 

[Gypo Logger]

Hi Walt, I wish I could help you wiggle out of this one, but alas, I enjoy the relative comfort of a greenhorn. I was prouder than punch to be wearing a Martin chain, but if you send me a Walt Galer racing chain I will pay you whatever you need to have for one.
With very best regards to all, Cheers,
John

 

[dozerdan]

Hi
I think the only way to settle this one is,have Walt send his chain up to John,use both chains on the same saw,bar,log.Have someone time each cut and let us all know the results.
Later
Dan

 

[HUSKYMAN]

I agree. Racing by its very definition is unique, and no two filers are going to be close to each other in the way they file. CHALLENGE!

 

[Walt Galer]

Howdy,

Sorry, Rupedoggy.

I have done several contest chains in the manner I outlined. I usually did these to illustrate points in cutting theory, as a lot of folks get awful hung up on some strange ideas (such as advantages of narrow kerf) and have to see anything better to believe it. The only actual contest chains for contest use that I did was on the sly for Ron Hartell of N.Z. who had me do his for contests in Canada. I also made carving bars for him.

John,

What pitch and gauge to you want for a comparison trial? I'll then look around in my junk and see if I have anything left to work from.

I'm not kidding about not putting much over one hour in these, as I do most of the work using the chain grinder, which when once setup for an operation, repeats nicely and quickly. The hand filing takes no more time than a normal sharpening since I rough in the cutter configuration, roundground with the grinder, and have only to thin out with the file. I also hand file the gullet-out operation, as it is not possible to do this racehorse style with the grinder. The respin takes about as long as filing, and those two things are the most time consuming which is why it takes an hour or so.

Regards,
Walt Galer

 

[jokers]

Good Stuff!

Wow, I don`t stand on either side of this fence, I too am enjoying the relative comfort of being a greenhorn. I feel lucky because it allows me to try and take it all in from both sides, and through comprehension and interpretation, I`ll be trying my own hand at race filing. I`m very grateful to John for posting the pics, and ultimately getting this philosophical challenge started between two titans of the saw chain world. Art Martin, world renowned race chain fabricator, and Walt Galer, renowned himself throughout the chainsaw industry, and the bearer of much technical cutter info to the hungry masses. I think I can see merit in both styles of chain preparation to the extent that a true side by side comparison is going to be the only way to prove or disprove these strongly held beliefs. I can`t wait to see the outcome, and yet I have a gut feeling that either technique may have it`s advantages in specific applications. Russ

 

[Kevin]

Gentlemen,

START YOUR ENGINES

 

[Gypo Logger]

Hi there, I think I have this discussion all figured out.
It is just a good natured ploy by Walt, Art, Ken , Mike, Dennis and Walkers to push me over the edge into the Hotsaw World.
I think I like it so far. The Hotsaw crowd are a good bunch and are more than willing to help an upstart.
Walt, that is a very generous offer on your part, thankyou.
Could you make a 3/8 .050 60D in the make and model of your choice? I can pay you what you need or I can phone the Frontier Bar with my Visa# for a round on the house.
It would be nice if we could get away with 58D on a 7T, but I dont know if i can get that much slack, plus I dont really like two left or righthand cutters following each other.
Will the 357 or 346 have enough jam to drive an 8T sprocket?
Thankyou kindly,
John Lambert,
Box 74 Ballinafad Ontario
Canada N0B1H0
905 702 8357