1st post -- Special log splitter -- Need help

[Heavyopp]

1st off let me say Hi. I've been reading here for 4 months now. I was going to wait on my 1st post but I've run into an issue building a log splitter.

I need some of the hydraulics guru's help.

Here's the specs: 16 inch I beam with a 3/8ths web - 15.5 HP briggs engine -
22 GPM 2 stage pump - prince auto cycle valve - 25 gallon resi - 5" bore 31" stroke new pettibone cylinder.

As you can tell it's a heavy monster. I ended up finding a toro sand pro 14 on craigslist for real cheap ($40). (If I can figure out how to post a pic I'll do so of the toro) This machine is used for maintainence of baseball infields and sand traps on golf courses.

Anyway I want to take off the hydraulic drive assembly and use it on the splitter making it self propelled. I don't think it's going to be too much of a big deal to do but I'm a little lost on what way to do the valving to drive the sucker. It's currently driven by a hydrostatic trans type pump I think but I won't use that. The pump has the directional valving built in. Obviosly I want to power it using my splitter pump.

What I'm thinking is using a properly sized 2 position selector valve to separate the 2 hydraulic circuits. There is no need to move and split at the same time. The drive circuit would then have a rotary flow control going into directional valve. This would give me control of speed and direction of the hydraulic motors. After my directional valve I would go into the existing hydraulic piping to the 3 motors.

I would also incorporate an extra valve to control a steering cylinder.

Anyone have any thoughts? Am I crazy? Do I fit right in?

I'd love to hear some comments.

Thanks, Jer

 

[mga]

where are you driving this thing to?

why not just hook up a hitch to it?

 

[Mike Van]

Jer, I made mine [not as heavy as yours] self propelled a few years ago - I got tired of lifting the tounge & pushing or pulling it 5 ft, or 10 ft, or whatever I wanted to move it. On mine, I took the front jack apart, added a hyd. motor, chain, bearing, etc, & another valve in series [detent both ways] I steer it with a tiller arm that just slips on & off. It goes at a good walking speed, not something I'm going to drive to town on Sat. night for sure. Mine's not big on traction with the small tire pulling it, ice or deep snow, it'll just spin. If you can post some pics. of what your hyd. system is, that'll help. We have some really smart hyd. people here.

 

[Rookie1]

I think thats a good idea especially if the splitter is heavy or your yard is hilly.I live on hilly land and if I want to split up in the yard behind my house I either have to borrow my FIL tractor to tow splitter up there or split my nuggets trying to push/pull it by hand. Id love to have that setup.

 

[leon]

log splitter

1st off let me say Hi. I've been reading here for 4 months now. I was going to wait on my 1st post but I've run into an issue building a log splitter.

I need some of the hydraulics guru's help.

Here's the specs: 16 inch I beam with a 3/8ths web - 15.5 HP briggs engine -
22 GPM 2 stage pump - prince auto cycle valve - 25 gallon resi - 5" bore 31" stroke new pettibone cylinder.

As you can tell it's a heavy monster. I ended up finding a toro sand pro 14 on craigslist for real cheap ($40). (If I can figure out how to post a pic I'll do so of the toro) This machine is used for maintainence of baseball infields and sand traps on golf courses.

Anyway I want to take off the hydraulic drive assembly and use it on the splitter making it self propelled. I don't think it's going to be too much of a big deal to do but I'm a little lost on what way to do the valving to drive the sucker. It's currently driven by a hydrostatic trans type pump I think but I won't use that. The pump has the directional valving built in. Obviosly I want to power it using my splitter pump.

What I'm thinking is using a properly sized 2 position selector valve to separate the 2 hydraulic circuits. There is no need to move and split at the same time. The drive circuit would then have a rotary flow control going into directional valve. This would give me control of speed and direction of the hydraulic motors. After my directional valve I would go into the existing hydraulic piping to the 3 motors.

I would also incorporate an extra valve to control a steering cylinder.

Anyone have any thoughts? Am I crazy? Do I fit right in?

I'd love to hear some comments.

Thanks, Jer

OK jerry before you go any further- DO NOT DISMANTLE THE TORO SAND PRO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




The hydrostatic transmission will not help much as the entire animal is dedicated to the drive and operation of the machine with a common reservoir.

You will never have enough hydraulic oil and pressure to properly power and cycle the cylinder or a cylinder with that much volume.

Save the sand pro for moving the log splitter period as it will do just fine for that.

All that is needed is a good weldment for a ball hitch on the sand pro- the frame of the sand pro should have some substantial steel on the rear end over the axles to mount a ball hitch with a longer tongue to allow easier movement.


You will be much better off buying a motor, pump, and reservioir tank and mounting them on a two axle set up frame-small trailer axles come to mind
specifically(you will have a substantial amount of weight there with the oil and cylinder itself.


The idea being you will mount the I beam and pump motor assembly on the trailer with the I beam extending out past the trailers rear end two axles together will not allow the splitter to nose dive if spaced properly.and have better balance.

A small trailer will allow you to mount the tank and motor with ease and not have to worry about mounting it somewhere on the I beam etc.

Mount the splitter opposite the hitch tongue to make the weight distribution more even. Save the sand pro for moving the splitter, you will be glad you did as it will have great traction with the weight near the trailer tongue.



You want a tank that is twice the equivalent in volume to the cylinder as the oil surges will create a problem with oil blowing out of the breather- been there done that.

The Volume formula for a right cylinder is Pi times the radius times the radsius times the height of the cylinder your cylindder is a little less than 609 cubic inches in volume- no counting the piston and rod volume so you need a tank that hold more than 700 cubic inches of oil) (with a six gallon reservoir will double the capacity needed of (3 gallons minimum)you need the room for oil surges in all sincerity.

Pump tank combinations(with intank filter screens) are worth their weight in gold for new installations, money, and effort as you are starting from scratch and can be easily mounted on a small trailer-four bolts through the floor, washers and nylon lock nuts and your done.

The other thing is mounting the cylinder to the I beam mount the barrel end of the cylinder to the ram as it will work faster and have more useable pressure and flow to deliver fluid energy to the splitter- the retract will be slower but it will be worth it.




leon

 

[mtfallsmikey]

:agree2: :agree2:

I leave my splitter hooked up to the Cub Cadet all winter.

 

[Heavyopp]

I'll get some more info tonite or tomorrow. I was out snow plowing all night. Too tired to think right now.

Leon -- I think you misunderstood me --- I'm not trying to power the splitter from the sand pro. I am trying to power the sand pro from the splitter. The sand pro engine has ben dismantled by more than 1 person. I have no interest in fixing it.

Going to sleep.

Jer

 

[drmiller100]

great idea, lets make it even simpler.

get a 2 spool valve for your log splitter.

hook one of the outputs of one spool to one side of all the drive motors.
hook the other side of the outputs of the same spool to the other side fo the drive motors.

Drive it.

Control the speed with careful use of the spool valve and by idling your engine down.

skip the rotary control thing. skip the directional valve thing - your spool will do the same thing.

 

[Heavyopp]

great idea, lets make it even simpler.

get a 2 spool valve for your log splitter.

hook one of the outputs of one spool to one side of all the drive motors.
hook the other side of the outputs of the same spool to the other side fo the drive motors.

Drive it.

Control the speed with careful use of the spool valve and by idling your engine down.

skip the rotary control thing. skip the directional valve thing - your spool will do the same thing.

I though about doing this. Give up the 3rd drive wheel and just let it swivel. Drive on the 2 rear wheels steering like an excavator.

One of my thoughts though is that you always need "hands on" the machine. Depending on speed I might even need a seat. At 22 gpm from my pump, I'm not sure the motors could handle full flow, if the pump ever develops it.

The rotary flow control is cheap enough. should be under $100. At the moment I think I'd rather go this route.

I'll get pictures of the sand pro hydraulics tomorrow. Here's a few more of the total machine.

Jer

 

[drmiller100]

hmmmmm......

what are you thinking the rotary flow control valve is going to do????

 

[Jkebxjunke]

why not drive to 2 rear wheels and have the front swivel or drive it the other way with the swivel trailing behind... it would be like a skid steer --two motors and two valves...actually probably be kind of fun to drive .. and a positive note .. when the valves are closed it acts as a brake.

 

[Heavyopp]

hmmmmm......

what are you thinking the rotary flow control valve is going to do????

Wouldn't the rotary flow control be an easily adjustable speed control for the motors. The more flow you allow the faster they go.

Still would need separate controls for direction and steering.


Jer

 

[drmiller100]

I don't think you need the "rotary control."

you can also adjust the speed of the cart with engine speed, and by using the valve carefully.

i think if you put the drive motors in parallalel, you are going to be ok.

Worst case, hook it up the way I'm telling you, then you can add the flow control later if you need it.

for steering, you can use a hydraulic ram to the front tire to control the steering wheel. You could use a third spool to control the steering. The ram that would make sense would be pretty small in diameter, so steering would be "quick".

Or, even simpler, build a bracket that hooks on to the splitter that runs to the front tire. So, you'd actually use the splitter ram to steer with it. Unhook the bracket so the tire doesn't turn back and forth when you split wood.

 

[Heavyopp]

Gonna use just 2 motors

So I've given it some thought and I think I'm going to do it like suggested. Drive it like a skid steer.

This will keep the hydraulic system simpler. It will also aid in mobility of the spreader. It will be able to turn faster.

I have a question on the type of valve I should use.

Surplus center has them 2 ways. It will be a double spool valve driving the motors.

The question is : Do I use a valve designated "motor control". These valves have the work ports open to tank while the spool is in neutral.

The other valve designated for cylinders have load checks and work prts are not open to tank when in neutral.

To me this makes more sence. Wouldn't the valve act as a brake for the motors preventing the free flow of fluid while the valves are in neutral?

Why would someone want the work ports open to tank while in neutral for a drive motor application?

Thanks, Jer

 

[eric_271]

1st off let me say Hi. I've been reading here for 4 months now. I was going to wait on my 1st post but I've run into an issue building a log splitter.

I need some of the hydraulics guru's help.

Here's the specs: 16 inch I beam with a 3/8ths web - 15.5 HP briggs engine -
22 GPM 2 stage pump - prince auto cycle valve - 25 gallon resi - 5" bore 31" stroke new pettibone cylinder.

As you can tell it's a heavy monster. I ended up finding a toro sand pro 14 on craigslist for real cheap ($40). (If I can figure out how to post a pic I'll do so of the toro) This machine is used for maintainence of baseball infields and sand traps on golf courses.

Anyway I want to take off the hydraulic drive assembly and use it on the splitter making it self propelled. I don't think it's going to be too much of a big deal to do but I'm a little lost on what way to do the valving to drive the sucker. It's currently driven by a hydrostatic trans type pump I think but I won't use that. The pump has the directional valving built in. Obviosly I want to power it using my splitter pump.

What I'm thinking is using a properly sized 2 position selector valve to separate the 2 hydraulic circuits. There is no need to move and split at the same time. The drive circuit would then have a rotary flow control going into directional valve. This would give me control of speed and direction of the hydraulic motors. After my directional valve I would go into the existing hydraulic piping to the 3 motors.

I would also incorporate an extra valve to control a steering cylinder.

Anyone have any thoughts? Am I crazy? Do I fit right in?

I'd love to hear some comments.

Thanks, Jer

Do your self a favor and get rid of your 16'' I beam. It's going to twist pretty bad. Try to find an 8'' 1/2 thich beam. The taller the webb the more twist it will have. Been there done that.

 

[Mike Van]

Jer, there's a reason they say not to use the valves that block oil flow in neutral on hyd. motors, it has to do with shock loads. That said, I used the block port one on my self propelled set-up and it works fine, 2 years now. I don't know how it would do though using 2 valves where one would be closed or in rev. while the other was driving? If you're on any grade at all, the open port valve will let your load [splitter] creep. Maybe you could find out what some of those zero turn mowers use?

 

[Heavyopp]

Eric 271- Did you have any web stiffeners in it?

The 16 inch beam is here to stay. It's what I have. The splitter is already started. Engine and pump are mounted. Cylinder is mounted. Wheels are next.

If it turns out to be a problem I'll put some braces in. Probably do it before it is a problem. 16" beam with 3/8th web and 1/2 flanges.



Mike van -- One of my motors does have the pilot port on it. Must be for a brake although it free wheels without any drag. Maybe I'll try and figure out what's going on there.

The motors are Ross torq motors. I don't know the displacement.


Jer

 

[kevin j]

if the open I beam twists in torsion, plate gussets vertically won't help much. box the sides to turn into a closed tube. Open sections don't have much torisonal resistance, need to be a closed tube like section.

The small port on the motor is probably a case drain, not a brake. Check with the vendor literature.

 

[drmiller100]

on motors, there is something called a "case drain". Basically, fluid that "leaks" past the internal mechanisms gets drained off instead of building pressure inside the case and blowing out seals.

sometimes the case drain is a separate line, sometimes it drains into whichever line is the "return", depending on which way the motor turns.

this is why you never run motors in series unless they have external case drains.

I think you would be fine using either type of valve in this application.

If you are going to use a way spool for the drive motors, and a separate 2 way valve for the splitter, make sure one of them has "power beyond."

Regards,
Doug

 

[gink595]

Do your self a favor and get rid of your 16'' I beam. It's going to twist pretty bad. Try to find an 8'' 1/2 thich beam. The taller the webb the more twist it will have. Been there done that.

Sounds like your W-beam is a W16x40, you should have a total depth of 16.01", Web=(.305) and flanges= 6.995" with a thickness of (.505). 40= Lbs per foot. Thats a good sized beam but don't be surprised if you do find it to twist so be prepared to add web stiffeners like some .375 x 3" flat bar to help stiffen the weak axis.