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Seems to be the ONLY thing you aren't complaining about!:cry:


Mike

You can dismiss me as a complainer if you want, no skin off my nose. You can dismiss me as a 'Brad-hater' if you want as well. It certainly is easy to do.

I have no issues with what Brad did, because he did what he could given the usual constraints.

What started the complaining was me posting the times shown in the videos Brad made. Brad say he didn't look at them, but has a lot to say about them.

He says the data I used weren't appropriate. I fully expected that. Of course they made more cuts than he showed in the videos.

Seemed logical to ask 2 questions:

1. How were the data that were collected used to get the numbers that were reported? Average of all cuts? That would be good. Sorting of cut times by load? Also good, but only one difference was reported for each comparison. Comparison of selected cuts? Bad. It might seem logical to compare the fastest cut times for each condition, but that can be quite misleading.

2. What are the data? Again, given the circumstances, a logical question to ask, but also a reasonable to expect a "no" from.

What I got was smoke and mirrors about how my expectation for the testing was unrealistic.

The testing is what it had to be, and would have to be in most cases. I don't have a problem with variation in a data set, but it does make how you look at the data very important.

I was told I just don't understand the variation. I understand it quite well. I also understand that it makes comparisons difficult. That's why I offered to help with the comparisons.

I wouldn't care about the numbers if Brad hadn't used numbers. I wouldn't still be here, and things wouldn't have gone the way they did if Brad had simply told me HOW he did the calculations for the comparisons. I don't expect him to share his numbers.

There are good ways and bad ways to deal with variable data. In general, people seem interested in knowing what the right way is. That's not the case here.

A lot of it is probably how I come across. Not the first time it has been an issue. I get frustrated when people avoid the issue.

Banacanin even sent me a PM offering to give me lessons on how to make a point without offending others...right before he posted his boobs video.
 
Ed not trying to sound like a A hole here but you keep posting the same BS about data and testing and nobody cares. are you expecting everyone to read your posts and say OMG i finally understand what he has been saying the last 40,0000000 posts? We get it he did a horrible test and should probably be kicked off the site for a few months to think about what he has done......

After reading my own post i am sure you will think i am an A hole so i am apologizing now cause i wont be around later..
 
Ed not trying to sound like a A hole here but you keep posting the same BS about data and testing and nobody cares. are you expecting everyone to read your posts and say OMG i finally understand what he has been saying the last 40,0000000 posts? We get it he did a horrible test and should probably be kicked off the site for a few months to think about what he has done......

After reading my own post i am sure you will think i am an A hole so i am apologizing now cause i wont be around later..

No, I don't think you are an A hole, but you did leave out some commons in your large number and the one you did put in is in the wrong place.

How is that for details, LOL,

Sam
 
Ed not trying to sound like a A hole here but you keep posting the same BS about data and testing and nobody cares. are you expecting everyone to read your posts and say OMG i finally understand what he has been saying the last 40,0000000 posts? We get it he did a horrible test and should probably be kicked off the site for a few months to think about what he has done......

That's why I keep posting the same thing over and over. He didn't do a horrible test. I'm not saying that he did.

A: "This coffee is hot."

B: "Why don't you like coffee?"

A: "I like coffee...it's just that this cup is hot."

B: "But it's good coffee. Why don't you like it?"

A: "I do like it...it's just hot."

B: "I get it. You don't like coffee. Why keep repeating it?"

A: "But I do like coffee...."

You'll have to help me understand the "interested in the comparison but not the data" thing as well.
 
That's why I keep posting the same thing over and over. He didn't do a horrible test. I'm not saying that he did.

A: "This coffee is hot."

B: "Why don't you like coffee?"

A: "I like coffee...it's just that this cup is hot."

B: "But it's good coffee. Why don't you like it?"

A: "I do like it...it's just hot."

B: "I get it. You don't like coffee. Why keep repeating it?"

A: "But I do like coffee...."

You'll have to help me understand the "interested in the comparison but not the data" thing as well.


If somebody did a comparative analysis of a BB gun and a Howitzer using flawed methodology and the Howitzer came out on top, who the #### cares if the methodology was slightly erronious, when it is otherwise obvious the result is valid.

In the end, when the chips are flying, footing is uneven, the wood is inconsistent, the chain is filed on a log with a file that has been rolling around in a box full of grit, and the operator is constipated, dehydrated and ticked off because his team lost last Sunday.

Data to quantify what is tangible but difficult to otherwise communicate, would be nice,but unneccessary to the practical minded.;)

Stay safe!
Dingeryote
 
That's why I keep posting the same thing over and over. He didn't do a horrible test. I'm not saying that he did.

A: "This coffee is hot."

B: "Why don't you like coffee?"

A: "I like coffee...it's just that this cup is hot."

B: "But it's good coffee. Why don't you like it?"

A: "I do like it...it's just hot."

B: "I get it. You don't like coffee. Why keep repeating it?"

A: "But I do like coffee...."

You'll have to help me understand the "interested in the comparison but not the data" thing as well.


If somebody did a comparative analysis of a BB gun and a Howitzer using flawed methodology and the Howitzer came out on top, who the #### cares if the methodology was slightly erronious, when it is otherwise obvious the result is valid.

In the end, when the chips are flying, footing is uneven, the wood is inconsistent, the chain is filed on a log with a file that has been rolling around in a box full of grit, and the operator is constipated, dehydrated and ticked off because his team lost last Sunday, data is lost.

Data to quantify what is tangible but difficult to otherwise communicate, would be nice,but unneccessary to the practical minded.;)

Stay safe!
Dingeryote
 
Simple solution to this comparison / test. If you think the methodolagy and data are flawed dont buy this saw based on this comparison. Why some peoples happiness is reliant on other people liking the saw they like is beyond me. Run what ya like like what ya run.
 
You can dismiss me as a complainer if you want, no skin off my nose. You can dismiss me as a 'Brad-hater' if you want as well. It certainly is easy to do.

I have no issues with what Brad did, because he did what he could given the usual constraints.

What started the complaining was me posting the times shown in the videos Brad made. Brad say he didn't look at them, but has a lot to say about them.

He says the data I used weren't appropriate. I fully expected that. Of course they made more cuts than he showed in the videos.

Seemed logical to ask 2 questions:

1. How were the data that were collected used to get the numbers that were reported? Average of all cuts? That would be good. Sorting of cut times by load? Also good, but only one difference was reported for each comparison. Comparison of selected cuts? Bad. It might seem logical to compare the fastest cut times for each condition, but that can be quite misleading.

2. What are the data? Again, given the circumstances, a logical question to ask, but also a reasonable to expect a "no" from.

What I got was smoke and mirrors about how my expectation for the testing was unrealistic.

The testing is what it had to be, and would have to be in most cases. I don't have a problem with variation in a data set, but it does make how you look at the data very important.

I was told I just don't understand the variation. I understand it quite well. I also understand that it makes comparisons difficult. That's why I offered to help with the comparisons.

I wouldn't care about the numbers if Brad hadn't used numbers. I wouldn't still be here, and things wouldn't have gone the way they did if Brad had simply told me HOW he did the calculations for the comparisons. I don't expect him to share his numbers.

There are good ways and bad ways to deal with variable data. In general, people seem interested in knowing what the right way is. That's not the case here.

A lot of it is probably how I come across. Not the first time it has been an issue. I get frustrated when people avoid the issue.

Banacanin even sent me a PM offering to give me lessons on how to make a point without offending others...right before he posted his boobs video.


we are still talking about chainsaws here, right? :confused::dizzy:
 
Everything in moderation. Including moderating.








And moderation.

AND STATISTICS, CHARTS, GRAPHS, ETC.

See? Nothing more will come from this. I said before this post (#1168) that the thread should be preserved, with Brads summation of his findings. I trust, not because I'm in his fan club, or have gotten saws worked on for nothing, but because he went out and did it. And invited others to run the saw. We were able to watch some of that. To complain or infer that the testing was not scientific is your right, but also not relevant. If I wanted talk about the science, I'd ask for the Troll to spout numbers and blueprints and weights. Again, not relevant, because numbers and statistics aren't everything, in saws and life. "Lies, damn lies, and statistics." I want to read from the guys who ran the saw, not some graph from a self proclaimed numbers cruncher. I would think all testing could be improved, but you take (or should take) the numbers knowing for a number of different reasons your results may vary. I missed most of this fiasco yesterday while cutting/splitting firewood. I never seen a chart, graph or blueprint cut anything other than my finger. Add to the thread, try not to subtract from it or your own standing by p#ssing all over it.
 
AND STATISTICS, CHARTS, GRAPHS, ETC.

See? Nothing more will come from this. I said before this post (#1168) that the thread should be preserved, with Brads summation of his findings. I trust, not because I'm in his fan club, or have gotten saws worked on for nothing, but because he went out and did it. And invited others to run the saw. We were able to watch some of that. To complain or infer that the testing was not scientific is your right, but also not relevant. If I wanted talk about the science, I'd ask for the Troll to spout numbers and blueprints and weights. Again, not relevant, because numbers and statistics aren't everything, in saws and life. "Lies, damn lies, and statistics." I want to read from the guys who ran the saw, not some graph from a self proclaimed numbers cruncher. I would think all testing could be improved, but you take (or should take) the numbers knowing for a number of different reasons your results may vary. I missed most of this fiasco yesterday while cutting/splitting firewood. I never seen a chart, graph or blueprint cut anything other than my finger. Add to the thread, try not to subtract from it or your own standing by p#ssing all over it.

YEA!!! What he said! :agree2:

Well put buddy. :yourock:
 
Leo (Lev Nikolayevich) Tolstoy was born at Yasnaya Polyana, his family's estate, on August 28, 1828, in Russia's Tula Province, the youngest of four sons. His mother died when he was two years old, whereupon his father's distant cousin Tatyana Ergolsky took charge of the children. In 1837 Tolstoy's father died, and an aunt, Alexandra Osten-Saken, became legal guardian of the children. Her religious dedication was an important early influence on Tolstoy. When she died in 1840, the children were sent to Kazan, Russia, to another sister of their father, Pelageya Yushkov.

Tolstoy was educated at home by German and French tutors. He was not a particularly exceptional student but he was good at games. In 1843 he entered Kazan University. Planning on a diplomatic career, he entered the faculty of Oriental languages. Finding these studies too demanding, he switched two years later to studying law. Tolstoy left the university in 1847 without taking his degree.

Tolstoy returned to Yasnaya Polyana, determined to become a model farmer and a "father" to his serfs (unpaid farmhands). His charity failed because of his foolishness in dealing with the peasants (poor, working class) and because he spent too much time socializing in Tula and Moscow. During this time he first began making amazingly honest diary entries, a practice he maintained until his death. These entries provided much material for his fiction, and in a very real sense the collection is one long autobiography.
Army life and early literary career

Nikolay, Tolstoy's eldest brother, visited him at in 1848 in Yasnaya Polyana while on leave from military service in the Caucasus. Leo greatly loved his brother, and when he asked him to join him in the south, Tolstoy agreed. After a long journey, he reached the mountains of the Caucasus, where he sought to join the army as a Junker, or gentleman-volunteer. Tolstoy's habits on a lonely outpost consisted of hunting, drinking, sleeping, chasing the women, and occasionally fighting. During the long lulls he first began to write. In 1852 he sent the autobiographical sketch Childhood to the leading journal of the day, the Contemporary. Nikolai Nekrasov, its editor, was ecstatic, and when it was published (under Tolstoy's initials), so was all of Russia. Tolstoy then began writing The Cossacks (finished in 1862), an account of his life in the outpost.

From November 1854 to August 1855 Tolstoy served in the battered fortress at Sevastopol in southern Ukraine. He had requested transfer to this area, a sight of one of the bloodiest battles of the Crimean War (1853–1956; when Russia battled England and France over land). As he directed fire from the Fourth Bastion, the hottest area in the conflict for a long while, Tolstoy managed to write Youth, the second part of his autobiographical trilogy. He also wrote the three Sevastopol Tales at this time, revealing the distinctive Tolstoyan vision of war as a place of unparalleled confusion and heroism, a special space where men, viewed from the author's neutral, godlike point of view, were at their best and worst.

When the city fell, Tolstoy was asked to make a study of the artillery action during the final assault and to report with it to the authorities in St. Petersburg, Russia. His reception in the capital was a triumphant success. Because of his name, he was welcomed into the most brilliant society. Because of his stories, he was treated as a celebrity by the cream of literary society.
Golden years

In September 1862, Tolstoy married Sofya Andreyevna Bers (or Behrs), a woman sixteen years younger than himself. Daughter of a prominent Moscow doctor, Bers was beautiful, intelligent, and, as the years would show, strong-willed. The first decade of their marriage brought Tolstoy the greatest happiness; never before or after was his creative life so rich or his personal life so full. In June 1863 his wife had the first of their thirteen children.

The first portion of War and Peace was published in 1865 (in the Russian Messenger ) as "The Year 1805." In 1868 three more chapters appeared, and in 1869 he completed the novel. His new novel created a fantastic out-pouring of popular and critical reaction.

Tolstoy's War and Peace represents a high point in the history of world literature, but it was also the peak of Tolstoy's personal life. His characters represent almost everyone he had ever met, including all of his relations on both sides of his family. Balls and battles, birth and death, all were described in amazing detail. In this book the European realistic novel, with its attention to social structures, exact description, and psychological rendering, found its most complete expression.

From 1873 to 1877 Tolstoy worked on the second of his masterworks, Anna Karenina, which also created a sensation upon its publication. The concluding section of the novel was written during another of Russia's seemingly endless wars with Turkey. The novel was based partly on events that had occurred on a neighboring estate, where a nobleman's rejected mistress had thrown herself under a train. It again contained great chunks of disguised biography, especially in the scenes describing the courtship and marriage of Kitty and Levin. Tolstoy's family continued to grow, and his royalties (money earned from sales) were making him an extremely rich man.
Spiritual crisis

The ethical quest that had begun when Tolstoy was a child and that had tormented him throughout his younger years now drove him to abandon all else in order to seek an ultimate meaning in life. At first he turned to the Russian Orthodox Church, visiting the Optina-Pustyn monastery in 1877. But he found no answer.

In 1883 Tolstoy met V. G. Chertkov, a wealthy guard officer who soon became the moving force behind an attempt to start a movement in Tolstoy's name. In the next few years a new publication was founded (the Mediator ) in order to spread Tolstoy's word in tract (pamphlets) and fiction, as well as to make good reading available to the poor. In six years almost twenty million copies were distributed. Tolstoy had long been watched by the secret police, and in 1884 copies of What I Believe were seized from the printer.

During this time Tolstoy's relations with his family were becoming increasingly strained. The more of a saint he became in the eyes of the world, the more of a devil he seemed to his wife. He wanted to give his wealth away, but she would not hear of it. An unhappy compromise was reached in 1884, when Tolstoy assigned to his wife the copyright to all his works before 1881.

Tolstoy's final years were filled with worldwide acclaim and great unhappiness, as he was caught in the strife between his beliefs, his followers, and his family. The Holy Synod (the church leaders) excommunicated (kicked him out) him in 1901. Unable to endure the quarrels at home he set out on his last pilgrimage (religious journey) in October 1910, accompanied by his youngest daughter, Alexandra, and his doctor. The trip proved too much, and he died in the home of the stationmaster of the small depot at Astapovo, Russia, on November 9, 1910. He was buried at Yasnaya Polyana.
For More Information

Rancour-Laferriere, Daniel. Tolstoy on the Couch: Misogyny, Masochism, and the Absent Mother. New York: New York University Press, 1998.

Troyat, Henri. Tolstoy. Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1967. Reprint, New York: Grove Press, 2001.

Wilson, A. N. Tolstoy. London: H. Hamilton, 1988.


Read more: Leo Tolstoy Biography - life, family, childhood, children, name, death, history, wife, mother, book, old, information, born, marriage, time, year, sister http://www.notablebiographies.com/St-Tr/Tolstoy-Leo.html#ixzz15wmFIMy9
 
i just wanted to say a couple things. first it has never been mentioned (to my knowledge) that the vids could have been mis-labeled and thats why Edisto says the MM was slower and Brad says not. maybe the MM and stock vids were mixed up accidently, it happens?

my second thought is that i never took what Edisto said as an attack like it seems to have been recieved. i really felt like he was offering some advice on how to improve the next comparrisons we as a site make. however i will say that he came across kinda rough and i can understand how most kinda took it as he was putting down the test that Brad worked so hard on. ha! i said hard on!!

i think what needs to be taken from here is Brad didn't need to make us any vids, or offer up his findings. that was above and beyond in my eyes, thank you Brad.

Brad's findings are correct and accepted as such.

and finally, Edisto taught us how to do these sorts of tests more precisely in the future with little to no extra work.

please leave all the rest behind, this thread has turned into an embarressment due to all the bickering.
 
All i know is this..........Brad is going to make me one of these 261's! It's a snellerized Christmas for me!:chainsawguy:
 
After putting 2 tanks of fuel through mine I like it a lot. For what I cut this will be my go to saw and may just get ported in the coming months.
 

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