Terry Syd
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Does anybody have any experience running a narrow kerf 20" bar set-up?
Bailey's - ArborPro 20" Narrow Kerf Bar & Chain Combo
Bailey's - ArborPro 20" Narrow Kerf Bar & Chain Combo
Narrow kerf - 20" bar
- Thread starter Terry Syd
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I have run it on a Dolmar 115 and on a Husqvarna 346XP.
Does a good job, especially on the 115, seemed to make it cut faster, and it should, it's not putting as much of a load on the saw.
Does a good job, especially on the 115, seemed to make it cut faster, and it should, it's not putting as much of a load on the saw.
cjrenegade82
ArboristSite Member
I have used an 18 inch oregon nk bar and chain and liked it
Terry Syd
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Yeah, I've got a 15" and 18" bar, but on some of the logs I'm cutting the 20" could save me some work.
There was some discussion some time ago about the ArborPro bars not being too strong, the term was like 'diving boards', that is, flexing. I'm wondering if anyone has run into that, or if the problem seems to have been corrected.
Bailey's indicates that it is a hot seller and they are having problems keeping the bars in stock. If so, the bars should be going somewhere and I was hoping to get some feedback from the forum.
So far, one positive - gee, that's a 100% approval rate! Anybody else using the 20" narrow kerf bar?
There was some discussion some time ago about the ArborPro bars not being too strong, the term was like 'diving boards', that is, flexing. I'm wondering if anyone has run into that, or if the problem seems to have been corrected.
Bailey's indicates that it is a hot seller and they are having problems keeping the bars in stock. If so, the bars should be going somewhere and I was hoping to get some feedback from the forum.
So far, one positive - gee, that's a 100% approval rate! Anybody else using the 20" narrow kerf bar?
Terry Syd
Addicted to ArboristSite
Jtheo, is that a Husky 20" bar that you are running?
Bailey's - Husqvarna 20" Narrow Kerf Pixel Chainsaw Bar
Bailey's - Husqvarna 20" Narrow Kerf Pixel Chainsaw Bar
I have run the Oregon/Husqvarna NK stuff and like it on the smaller saws. I never noticed the bar flexing much and the 95VP chain is good, stays sharp.
I have not tried the WP/Carlton at all but my feelings anymore on the Carlton is I wouldn't be too much in a hurry to buy any of it.
I have not tried the WP/Carlton at all but my feelings anymore on the Carlton is I wouldn't be too much in a hurry to buy any of it.
Jim Mesthene
ArboristSite Operative
I have an ArborPro NK 18" bar that I use on a Husky 350.
I've had no trouble, using it mostly on Hardwood. In Softwood I prefer the Full Round Chisel on a 16" bar to the Semi-Chisel NK.
I've had no trouble, using it mostly on Hardwood. In Softwood I prefer the Full Round Chisel on a 16" bar to the Semi-Chisel NK.
ronT2
ArboristSite Guru
That’s exactly why I’ve had one on my 2150 for years. I hate hiking in somewhere with a saw and wishing I had 2-4 more inches of bar.
I bought the Arborpro NK combo but usually run their standard kerf .325 chisel on it. From what I’ve read about some of the wood you guys get into the semi-chisel NK might suit you just fine. I’ve pinched the bar good a couple times and it’s come out fine. It is a little on the flexible side so if you have a tendency to use your saw as a pry bar you probably won’t be too happy with it. Unlike some of my Oregon bars though it still has paint on it.
The combo was $18 when I bought it so you couldn’t beat the price!
It is an ArboxPro NK from Baileys. I have also used the ArborMax in 20 inch ,325 pitch and have had no problems with them.
I will say that they have been use for light work, good sized limbs and such.
SawTroll
Information Collector
:agree2: , but I still would like to try the 20NK chain.
NK chain most likely will be be a good choise with a 20" bar on the 350.
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Terry Syd
Addicted to ArboristSite
I went ahead and ordered a Husky 20" NK bar from Baileys. As I was looking at the 20" chain loops I noticed that Baileys now has the 95VPX in stock. So I also ordered two loops of the VPX.
I wanted to compare the old style 95VP with the newer 95VPX, but unfortunately all I have is worn and resharpened 95VP chains. If anyone is in a position to compare a new VP with the VPX it may be informative as to what new angles (if any) could be used on the old style VP chains.
In any case, I'll take a look myself and report back what I find.
I wanted to compare the old style 95VP with the newer 95VPX, but unfortunately all I have is worn and resharpened 95VP chains. If anyone is in a position to compare a new VP with the VPX it may be informative as to what new angles (if any) could be used on the old style VP chains.
In any case, I'll take a look myself and report back what I find.
gallegosmike
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I've been using a 16"-18"-20" oregon(came with husky saws)and bailey's(carlton) narrow kerf bars. For what I paid for them. They are just fine, but do not treat them like a solid bar.
I Do Not care for oregon 95VP chain. I does not hold up as good compared to woodland pro 20NK chain. The cutter is a bit longer on 20NK chain and the metal used is a lot harder compared to the oregon chain. The only thing good about the oregon 95VP chain is that it is anti-vib.
My .02
Mike
I Do Not care for oregon 95VP chain. I does not hold up as good compared to woodland pro 20NK chain. The cutter is a bit longer on 20NK chain and the metal used is a lot harder compared to the oregon chain. The only thing good about the oregon 95VP chain is that it is anti-vib.
My .02
Mike
CGC4200
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20 NK on 18" Arbor Pro
I have my Makita 520 DCS 520 set up this way for better limbing with 8 pin rim, seems
OK so far.
I was a little concerned about running NK chain on a 50cc. class saw after reading
95VP page in the Oregon Maintenance Manual, recommended up to 45 cc,
but it looks like some 50cc. saws come with NK new.
I have my Makita 520 DCS 520 set up this way for better limbing with 8 pin rim, seems
OK so far.
I was a little concerned about running NK chain on a 50cc. class saw after reading
95VP page in the Oregon Maintenance Manual, recommended up to 45 cc,
but it looks like some 50cc. saws come with NK new.
SawTroll
Information Collector
They often do, but it isn't always the most effective chain on the stronger ones.
Terry Syd
Addicted to ArboristSite
Sawtroll, I can understand that the 20NK would be better for boring cuts as it doesn't have the bumper ramps that the 95VP has, but as for being less effective than other chains I don't understand 'why'.
I can also understand that a square cutter will cut faster than a round ground cutter, but that is not an option for the wood I cut.
I've taken the 95VP out a little over 6 degrees of cutting angle and it will chew through a log. For my tastes, that's a bit too agressive for limbing, so I prefer a 5 degree angle. However, the cutters on a .325 chain are closer together than a 3/8" chain so even with an aggressive cutting angle the .325 chain should still run relatively smooth.
The old wives tale about 'chip clearance' on the NK chains also doesn't appear true. Even with a 6 degree cutting angle and the 18" bar buried in softwood there was no indication of a chip clearance problem (except for the pile around my feet).
I must be missing something, as it seems to me that if someone needs a more aggressive chain, then increasing the cutting angle on a NK chain seems the logical answer. I'd rather load the engine with a deeper cut than a wider cut.
I can also understand that a square cutter will cut faster than a round ground cutter, but that is not an option for the wood I cut.
I've taken the 95VP out a little over 6 degrees of cutting angle and it will chew through a log. For my tastes, that's a bit too agressive for limbing, so I prefer a 5 degree angle. However, the cutters on a .325 chain are closer together than a 3/8" chain so even with an aggressive cutting angle the .325 chain should still run relatively smooth.
The old wives tale about 'chip clearance' on the NK chains also doesn't appear true. Even with a 6 degree cutting angle and the 18" bar buried in softwood there was no indication of a chip clearance problem (except for the pile around my feet).
I must be missing something, as it seems to me that if someone needs a more aggressive chain, then increasing the cutting angle on a NK chain seems the logical answer. I'd rather load the engine with a deeper cut than a wider cut.
Terry Syd
Addicted to ArboristSite
Some other thoughts, when I looked at the Oregon webpage some time ago it indicated that chains with the 'X' designation had more chrome on the cutter. That piqued my interest as all I cut is dirty wood. However, the local Oz rep told me that there wasn't any extra chrome, but that they had changed the angles on the 95VPX.
OK, maybe that explains why it is alleged (advertising hype?) that the VPX cuts up to 15% faster. However, when I looked at the page on sharpening - the angles were the same -???
Perhaps it may have something to do with the heel of the cutter. Maybe it has been shortened to allow the cutter to get a quicker bite, or maybe it has been lengthened to allow the cutter to take a longer bite - bugger if I know.
As far as the toughness of the steel under the chrome, that does not do the cutting. In fact, I think it was Aussie that mentioned a Chinese chain he had that had really tough steel under the chrome and it was a pain to sharpen. However, the chrome was so thin that it dulled faster than anything else he ever used.
The height of the cutter doesn't do the cutting, it is the cutting angle. Perhaps as a cutter gets down towards the end of its life it might provide more chip clearance, but if you already have enough chip clearance with a used up 95VP chain, then the taller cutter on the 20NK chain isn't going to gain you anything.
So, coming back to the question, what makes a chain more effective on a stronger engine? Does it have something to do with some aspect of the chain geometry, like the heel of the cutter?
OK, maybe that explains why it is alleged (advertising hype?) that the VPX cuts up to 15% faster. However, when I looked at the page on sharpening - the angles were the same -???
Perhaps it may have something to do with the heel of the cutter. Maybe it has been shortened to allow the cutter to get a quicker bite, or maybe it has been lengthened to allow the cutter to take a longer bite - bugger if I know.
As far as the toughness of the steel under the chrome, that does not do the cutting. In fact, I think it was Aussie that mentioned a Chinese chain he had that had really tough steel under the chrome and it was a pain to sharpen. However, the chrome was so thin that it dulled faster than anything else he ever used.
The height of the cutter doesn't do the cutting, it is the cutting angle. Perhaps as a cutter gets down towards the end of its life it might provide more chip clearance, but if you already have enough chip clearance with a used up 95VP chain, then the taller cutter on the 20NK chain isn't going to gain you anything.
So, coming back to the question, what makes a chain more effective on a stronger engine? Does it have something to do with some aspect of the chain geometry, like the heel of the cutter?
gallegosmike
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A NK micro lite oregon bar with a 95vp chain came stock with my 2010 husky 346xp-ne. I do not think that it would be a good idea to go any larger then 50cc with any kind of NK chain. The chassis is lighter / narrower then standard .325 chain. And .325 is pretty flimsy compared to 3/8th chain. For what 20NK can do and how long it stays sharp. It makes up it's short comings by costing a lot less then 3/8th chain.
I am getting about 3-4 sharpening cycles before having to lower the rackers. With 3/8th chains, I get about 6-7 sharpening cycles before having to lower the rackers depending if semi-chisel or full-chisel chain.
My .02
Mike
gallegosmike
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Most NK bars are of the anti-kick back variety, narrow nose vs. wide nose. They just do not bore cut that well. You have to keep a high attack angle to keep the saw from vibrating out of your hands.
Most semi-chisel chains use a 35 degree top plate angle and 0 degree side angle. I am guessing it is to make up for being less efficient in the cut vs. a full-chisel chain. The inside of the cutter of a full-chisel chain is what makes it cut so fast compared to a semi-chisel chain. Think about it for a second, with a full-chisel chain. The cut is like a nice sharp beveled wood chisel. A semi-chisel chain is more like a wood gouge.
My .02
Mike
Terry Syd
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Isn't the strength of the chain determined by the strength of the side plates, not the width of the rollers? I didn't think that the side plates on NK .325 were different than standard .325. In any case, I use it on a 50cc saw.
I agree that the 35 degree top plate angle is what helps the NK semi-chisel chains cut as well as they do. The tight bend in the cutter (Oregon 'Micro-chisel') also helps to 'sharpen' the point.
I'm aware that full-chisel can cut faster (when sharp) than a semi-chisel, but it is a moot point with me. I can't get a full-chisel NK chain for the saw, but then I wouldn't use a full-chisel in any case because of the wood I cut.
I'd just like the reasoning of why one brand of semi-chisel allegedly cuts faster than another brand - especially when discussing NK, .325 and 3/8".
I remember one of the GTGs and there was a testing of various 50cc saws with .325 and 3/8 chain (I don't think NK was tested). Some saws cut better with the 3/8" - OK, why? It doesn't seem logical to me.
If a saw didn't cut as fast with the .325, what would the results have been if the cutting angle on the .325 was increased? Would the results be different - I think they would be. If you are putting X amount of horsepower into cutting the wood, the chain cutting deeper versus wider will cut through the wood faster.
This is all a mystery to me that I want to figure out. If anybody can point me to an engineering paper on chainsaw chain design (or some saw racer's favorite tricks) I'd love to have the link.
I agree that the 35 degree top plate angle is what helps the NK semi-chisel chains cut as well as they do. The tight bend in the cutter (Oregon 'Micro-chisel') also helps to 'sharpen' the point.
I'm aware that full-chisel can cut faster (when sharp) than a semi-chisel, but it is a moot point with me. I can't get a full-chisel NK chain for the saw, but then I wouldn't use a full-chisel in any case because of the wood I cut.
I'd just like the reasoning of why one brand of semi-chisel allegedly cuts faster than another brand - especially when discussing NK, .325 and 3/8".
I remember one of the GTGs and there was a testing of various 50cc saws with .325 and 3/8 chain (I don't think NK was tested). Some saws cut better with the 3/8" - OK, why? It doesn't seem logical to me.
If a saw didn't cut as fast with the .325, what would the results have been if the cutting angle on the .325 was increased? Would the results be different - I think they would be. If you are putting X amount of horsepower into cutting the wood, the chain cutting deeper versus wider will cut through the wood faster.
This is all a mystery to me that I want to figure out. If anybody can point me to an engineering paper on chainsaw chain design (or some saw racer's favorite tricks) I'd love to have the link.
Terry Syd
Addicted to ArboristSite
Here's the best document I've found so far - http://www.madsens1.com/pdf/RacingTechfacts_93099.pdf
I note that the clipped heel is preferred. Perhaps it allows the cutter to respond faster to a contact with the wood, which may give it a few more bites of chips in a given length. That may result in a more uniform cutting action and thus a lower 'vibration' in the chain's action. It should also tend to cut more chips during a revolution of the chain.
Just throwing it out there guys, anybody else have any ideas?
I note that the clipped heel is preferred. Perhaps it allows the cutter to respond faster to a contact with the wood, which may give it a few more bites of chips in a given length. That may result in a more uniform cutting action and thus a lower 'vibration' in the chain's action. It should also tend to cut more chips during a revolution of the chain.
Just throwing it out there guys, anybody else have any ideas?
