Aftermarket Cylinder... good and bad... the Truth!

[tlandrum]

i changed muh underwear last month,does it count. this month i turn them inside out and use the clean side.but im not against change:msp_scared:

 

[watsonr]

Because the cable is out, and I can't watch Toddlers and Tiaras.

Honey Boo Boo also... Crappy way to start the day!

 

[Modifiedmark]

As an aside, a few people here have been hanging their hats on OEM based on the argument that the want something they can simply bolt on.

I don't care who makes it...a piston and cylinder, in my view, are NEVER bolt-and-go parts.

I disagree. At near $300 for a Stihl OEM 441 P/C it damn well should be a bolt and go. So far the one and only that I have done is.

 

[Modifiedmark]

On another note, showing how these topends can run and how they hold up after porting and squish band cutting, does nothing to validate any quality improvements in these kits. You're only re-using the basic casting and the bore plating. Bore plating has not been a major contributor to the failure of these kits. Bailey's addressed that long ago when they went to NiSi, instead of chrome. This thread is about replacement topend quality as they come from the factory, not about what they can be turned into by an experience engine builder/porter? I don't think anyone will deny what the likes of Mastermind and Jacob J can turn these into. But, that's not what's being advertised and sold in this thread. What the market needs is a kit than can be bolted on without concerns of fitment and quality, just like 99% of OEM parts can be.

Exactly, your best post in some time!

 

[blsnelling]

As an aside, a few people here have been hanging their hats on OEM based on the argument that the want something they can simply bolt on.

I don't care who makes it...a piston and cylinder, in my view, are NEVER bolt-and-go parts.

I disagree. At near $300 for a Stihl OEM 441 P/C it damn well should be a bolt and go. So far the one and only that I have done is.

Mark, your experience with OEM is not the exception, rather the rule IMHO. It disturbs me that we're still, generally speaking, saying the kits posted in the OP are basically there, over inflating the AM quality, and trying to bring OEM down. That's sales, and does not facilitate the goal of continued improvement. Now don't throw me under the bus. That's my opinion, and you don't have to agree. There are still issues with squish bands, port shapes, etc. Are we making progress? In some cases, yes, other cases, not so much. A couple of those cylinders look fantastic, particularly, the Husky ones.

Exactly, your best post in some time!

I tried hard. There are one or two guys on here that make it nearly impossible to have a conversation with any kind of constructive criticism, which is required for change. If we don't point out the deficiencies, how are they going to fix them?

 

[ZeroJunk]

I have still not had any problems with plain old eBay aftermarket kits or NWP. I clean them up a little if necessary, maybe 10 minutes all together on anything that looks like it could come loose. I use the rings and clips that come with the kit most of the time. Sometimes I bend a clip being clumsy and fat fingered and need to replace it. But, overall I don't see what the big deal is. I have yet to have one come back.

 

[Mastermind]

Mark, your experience with OEM is not the exception, rather the rule IMHO. It disturbs me that we're still, generally speaking, saying the kits posted in the OP are basically there, over inflating the AM quality, and trying to bring OEM down. That's sales, and does not facilitate the goal of continued improvement. Now don't throw me under the bus. That's my opinion, and you don't have to agree. There are still issues with squish bands, port shapes, etc. Are we making progress? In some cases, yes, other cases, not so much. A couple of those cylinders look fantastic, particularly, the Husky ones.


I tried hard. There are one or two guys on here that make it nearly impossible to have a conversation with any kind of constructive criticism, which is required for change. If we don't point out the deficiencies, how are they going to fix them?

I still don't see where you were being constructive with this thread.

I'm not trying to stir the #### but the way you flip around makes it tough to follow along.

http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/216455.htm

 

[Jacob J.]

Mark, your experience with OEM is not the exception, rather the rule IMHO. It disturbs me that we're still, generally speaking, saying the kits posted in the OP are basically there, over inflating the AM quality, and trying to bring OEM down. That's sales, and does not facilitate the goal of continued improvement. Now don't throw me under the bus. That's my opinion, and you don't have to agree. There are still issues with squish bands, port shapes, etc. Are we making progress? In some cases, yes, other cases, not so much. A couple of those cylinders look fantastic, particularly, the Husky ones.

I agree with some of your points Brad- but you know, OEM have shot themselves in the foot time and time again. I have a whole box (probably 20 or so) of MS-440 cylinders that have good bores but are completely junk in my opinion because the plating stops 1/4" to 3/8" from the top of the bore. Could some guy slap those on with a stock piston and base gasket and make a runner? possibly. But I wouldn't risk it in the case of using those cylinders on a customer's saw or passing those jugs off to some guy. These are Stihl-made jugs but Mahle has done similar or worse in the past.

The key component of the open market is competition. Manufacturers are going to get away with as much as possible in terms of profit margins. Mahle's cylinders don't really cost them much more to produce than a lot of these aftermarket companies but their quality control is so high (usually) that they can get away with much higher prices.

The best thing to do in my experience is to educate consumers. An educated customer is usually a much better customer.

 

[DSS]

Don't go all smarty pants on us Jacob.

 

[Jacob J.]

Don't go all smarty pants on us Jacob.

Sowwy...

 

[Mastermind]

[video=youtube;G5f_gbzo4Q0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5f_gbzo4Q0[/video]

 

[wyk]

As an aside, a few people here have been hanging their hats on OEM based on the argument that the want something they can simply bolt on.

I don't care who makes it...a piston and cylinder, in my view, are NEVER bolt-and-go parts.

Well, that rules out 100% of chainsaws as delivered from the manufacturers...

 

[Modifiedmark]

There are still issues with squish bands, port shapes, etc.

Joe blow dont care about none of that stuff, long as it bolts on, runs, cuts wood and last at least a resonable amount of time is all that matters to most. If they make 10% less power, they will not notice anyway.

Like you said earlier, they should be able to bolt and go with no issues and shouldnt blow up right away.

Bobs question earlier was a direct question on the life span of these AM kits when used without modifcations, or at least thats how I took it.

His replies were about kits that were still working with OEM pistons, rings, clips etc. The only one who said anything about a kit with all the original kit parts was one by JJ and he reported that it didnt work very long.

All the rest of this stuff is BS and until a kit proves that it will work decent and last for sometime with only the original kits componets used they will be avoided by me. Trick is finding the decent ones.

 

[blsnelling]

I still don't see where you were being constructive with this thread.

I'm not trying to stir the #### but the way you flip around makes it tough to follow along.

http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/216455.htm

Randy, you're right. That thread was out of frustration, not one of my better moments. My comments about constructive criticism was in reference to the one or two guys that won't hardly let an opinion be stated without trying to cause trouble.

 

[Mastermind]

Randy, you're right. That thread was out of frustration, not one of my better moments. My comments about constructive criticism was in reference to the one or two guys that won't hardly let an opinion be stated without trying to cause trouble.

And with that I will let it go.

 

[blsnelling]

I agree with some of your points Brad- but you know, OEM have shot themselves in the foot time and time again. I have a whole box (probably 20 or so) of MS-440 cylinders that have good bores but are completely junk in my opinion because the plating stops 1/4" to 3/8" from the top of the bore. Could some guy slap those on with a stock piston and base gasket and make a runner? possibly. But I wouldn't risk it in the case of using those cylinders on a customer's saw or passing those jugs off to some guy. These are Stihl-made jugs but Mahle has done similar or worse in the past.

The key component of the open market is competition. Manufacturers are going to get away with as much as possible in terms of profit margins. Mahle's cylinders don't really cost them much more to produce than a lot of these aftermarket companies but their quality control is so high (usually) that they can get away with much higher prices.

The best thing to do in my experience is to educate consumers. An educated customer is usually a much better customer.

Jacob, you've been at this WAY longer than I have and have WAY more experience than I do. In my limited experience, I have never seen an OEM cylinder that couldn't be bolted on and run without failure. On the other hand, I have seen a few Stihl branded cylinders that left much to be desired in the casting and port finishing. I voiced my disappointment with those as well. We simply expect more than that from a top tier manufacture like Stihl. The difference, is that problems have been the exception for OEM, and have been a constant problem for AM. Thankfully, we have a few guys here that are trying to push back and get that quality up.

 

[Dennis Cahoon]

And with that I will let it go.

.......and someone else should follow your example!!!:msp_angry:

 

[ZeroJunk]

Joe blow dont care about none of that stuff, long as it bolts on, runs, cuts wood and last at least a resonable amount of time is all that matters to most. If they make 10% less power, they will not notice anyway.

Like you said earlier, they should be able to bolt and go with no issues and shouldnt blow up right away.

Bobs question earlier was a direct question on the life span of these AM kits when used without modifcations, or at least thats how I took it.

His replies were about kits that were still working with OEM pistons, rings, clips etc. The only one who said anything about a kit with all the original kit parts was one by JJ and he reported that it didnt work very long.

All the rest of this stuff is BS and until a kit proves that it will work decent and last for sometime with only the original kits componets used they will be avoided by me. Trick is finding the decent ones.

I have several that have been running for 5 years or better. Unfortunately, I have no idea what particular brand they were. They are all fire wood cutters so who knows how many hours.
I'm thinking you guys are just a little impractical.

 

[blsnelling]

.......and someone else should follow your example!!!:msp_angry:

No one's stopping you.

 

[Modifiedmark]

I have several that have been running for 5 years or better. Unfortunately, I have no idea what particular brand they were. They are all fire wood cutters so who knows how many hours.
I'm thinking you guys are just a little impractical.

Think what you want to.

Your experiance with them is one thing, someone else's is there's.

I really don't think I'm being impracitical at all when I think they should not blow up in less then 2 tanks of fuel run through them.