Unsharp chains

[Philbert]

Like everything else, there are quality levels in the ABN/CBN wheels. There are some as low as $100 and some up in the $260 range. Different minerals, different grits, ventilated, etc.

I use the basic Molemab abrasive wheels ($10 when on sale at Bailey's) or the Oregon ones and take my time. Dress frequently. Don't burn no more.

Philbert

 

[Cantdog]

Like everything else, there are quality levels in the ABN/CBN wheels. There are some as low as $100 and some up in the $260 range. Different minerals, different grits, ventilated, etc.

I use the basic Molemab abrasive wheels ($10 when on sale at Bailey's) or the Oregon ones and take my time. Dress frequently. Don't burn no more.

Philbert

You are dead on Philbert.......just because you shelled out good $$$ for a good grinder does not in any way assure a perfect sharpening job without learning how. I have a Tecomec grinder and get great results with the pink wheels...but.....I had to learn how and that was not without some pain a more than a little frustration. But I eventually overcame my inexperience. Dressing is the key and thoughtful, accurate setup. You need fresh abrasive and a light bite to cut and remain cool. Same thing with a 20" knife grinder I use for planer knives...need to dress frequently and more so with the cheaper knives with the tool steel cutting edge brazed or silver soldered to the mild steel blade body...the brazing plugs up the wheel very quickly and you start to burn the knife.....another steep learning curve...but after 20 yrs or so I get good results every time now...LOL!!! Keep the dressing stone or wheel within reach at all times!!!

 

[SS Sniper]

It's a stihl dealer, what do you expect? :hmm3grin2orange:

 

[olyman]

New here. Had a question. I've been cuttin firewood for the last couple weeks so I decided to send 2 chains into the local stihl shop and have them pro sharpened. I got them back today and they ain't worth a crap. Not sharp. They cut crooked. I even thru on a brand new chain to make sure it wasnt my bar. Handled like a champ with the new one.

I don't know if they didn't touch them or if they don't know what there doing? Would you take them back or how would y'all handle this? This is the first time I've ever had my chains pro sharpened and I'm not impressed, at all.

damn sure wouldn't go back to those morons.....

 

[bcaarms]

Edit: Or is that a Timber Tuff w/ the Cyclone Wheel? Doh!!

Yeah, its a timber Tuff with Cyclone wheel. The TT is designed with a base that is not level if you try to mount to flat surface with no overhang. Some on AS have commented that the base on theirs had casting flaws that would not let them mount it flat. I mounted it to the stand that cost $20 from Harbor Freight. The wheel cost $269 the grinder cost $149. Never took the pink wheels out of their wrapper. SO when you see a saw of mine cutting its with a chain sharpened by me on my TT grinder. I do take files with me to cut and touch up when I refuel.

 

[Andyshine77]

If the OP got a bad sharpening job by the shop, it was because who ever did it did not know what they were doing, not becasue of the sharpening method used.



You assume that automatically, without seeing the cutters?
(Should I assume that if a chain is hand-filed each cutter is at a different angle, and a different length, or that maybe some people know what they are doing?)

Wow people sure are touchy about how they sharpen chains. Did I assume the chain was overheated? you bet I did, whoever sharpened it obviously has no clue, and you and I both know how easy it is to overheat the teeth. I pay close attention to the tooth lengths and angles. I found that slight top plate angle variations, means a lot less than proper hook. I had an Oregon 511A grinder, it had quite a bit of flex, and it wasn't very accurate because of this.

Kool Grind is a wax that fills in the spaces between the abrasive grit particles in the grinding wheel to prevent them from filling up with debris. The idea is that this debris rubs against the cutter, heating it up. Does not actually act as a coolant. Was not impressed with it.

One of those subtle but important things to learn about grinding is the need to dress conventional stones - not just to maintain the shape, but to expose fresh abrasive. Otherwise, you are trying to cut with dull edges. Kind of like trying to cut logs with a dull chain by pressing harder - you can make some progress, but things heat up and it goes slower. Frequent dressing 'uses up' the grinding wheel faster, but cuts faster and cooler; kind of like frequent filing of your chain edges 'uses up' your cutters faster.Philbert

Like I said never used Kool Grind, from you're description it's exactly what I that it was.

Depends on how good is 'good enough', and finding something that works for you.

I like the Granberg for quiet sharpening. I also get very good edges grinding that more than meet my cutting needs.
Millions of chains are competently ground on a regular basis - we only here about the bad ones here.


Philbert

I've honestly never ran a machine round ground chain that could come close to a well hand filed chain.

 

[Steve NW WI]

I've honestly never ran a machine round ground chain that could come close to a well hand filed chain.

True, but you gotta admit a properly machine ground chain is quite useable, even if not optimal.

 

[bcaarms]

I've honestly never ran a machine round ground chain that could come close to a well hand filed chain.

Depends what you call close. Use same saw and time cuts. Then add up the time sharpening the chain or chains. I venture that machine ground will give close production. And at the end of the week or month will have out produced hand sharpened.

For one cut and no time accounted to sharpening the chain and it will still be close. So much is between the ears and not on the stop watch.

 

[Andyshine77]

Depends what you call close. Use same saw and time cuts. Then add up the time sharpening the chain or chains. I venture that machine ground will give close production. And at the end of the week or month will have out produced hand sharpened.

For one cut and no time accounted to sharpening the chain and it will still be close. So much is between the ears and not on the stop watch.

By the time you set up a grinder, make several passes, dress the stone regularly, I'd likely have a few chains already done. Now sharping 10 or more chains at a time is a different story, a grinder will be more productive.

 

[fearofpavement]

My opinion is that the ability to hand sharpen a chain is vital to sharpening one with a grinder. One has to know what they are trying to achieve with the grinder and sometimes I think the results of poorly sharpened chains done by either file or grinder is that the sharpener didn't have a clear understanding of the operation. I do almost all of my sharpening by hand but occasionally use a grinder on rocked or very dull chains as it speeds the process up. It is not complicated to sharpen a chain by ANY means if one has an understanding of what they should be doing. Practice practice practice.

If I got dull chains back from a shop, I would certainly take them back and whine. You may be the 20th customer with the same complaint.

 

[Cantdog]

My opinion is that the ability to hand sharpen a chain is vital to sharpening one with a grinder. One has to know what they are trying to achieve with the grinder and sometimes I think the results of poorly sharpened chains done by either file or grinder is that the sharpener didn't have a clear understanding of the operation. I do almost all of my sharpening by hand but occasionally use a grinder on rocked or very dull chains as it speeds the process up. It is not complicated to sharpen a chain by ANY means if one has an understanding of what they should be doing. Practice practice practice.

If I got dull chains back from a shop, I would certainly take them back and whine. You may be the 20th customer with the same complaint.

True that...I bought my grinder at first to lessen the time straightening out badly rocked/wired/poorly filed chains.....however after a time I found that I can regrind a merely dull chain really quickly and accurately...with out any ill effects...like case hardening the cutters....I too may have to hand file in the field and usually do a couple time in a days cutting. Again as I said before ( and you said) you have to know what you are doing and trying to achieve. The most expensive la-dee-da hand grinder with the most expensive wheel won't do a good job if the operator does not have this understanding.....you have to learn it...just like hand filing....the machine will not do it all for you.....you have to be part of the machine......guiding it...controlling it....any flex in a $300 grinder is irrelevant if you are in control because you know not to force it hard enough to flex it...IMHO.....

 

[tolman_paul]

Yup, if you expect a chain grinder to throw as much sparks as a chop saw then you will have issues with flex and burned up chains.

However once you learn to set the grinder to take a light cut you'll find it's a quick down up, advance chain, down up, advance chain etc and then flip the vise to the opposite angle and repeat. Very fast and consistant.

I'd rather carry 3 or 4 loops of sharp chain in the woods and only use the file as last result than touching up with a file several times during the day, then touch up the loops on the grinder.

 

[lambs]

Yup, if you expect a chain grinder to throw as much sparks as a chop saw then you will have issues with flex and burned up chains.

However once you learn to set the grinder to take a light cut you'll find it's a quick down up, advance chain, down up, advance chain etc and then flip the vise to the opposite angle and repeat. Very fast and consistant.

I'd rather carry 3 or 4 loops of sharp chain in the woods and only use the file as last result than touching up with a file several times during the day, then touch up the loops on the grinder.

I second that thought. Take several loops into the field and grind them at night afterwards. You have to develop a touch with grinding, just like filing. I have filed new chains the first several times they needed sharpening, and realized when I finally put them on the grinder that the cutters were already different lengths. And I was counting file strokes on each cutter. It's all in the operator whether it's a file or a grinding stone.

I have a CBN cyclone type wheel for 3/8 and love it. The profile never changes, you never need to dress it, and it grinds a lot cooler than vitreous. I still use Oregon wheels for .325 just to avoid the additional expense of another CBN wheel. The Oregon is fine if you use light taps and keep it dressed properly. But I'm probably going to keep cutting a fair amount with my 261, so another CBN wheel is in my future.

 

[Philbert]

I don't care how people sharpen their chains. Everyone needs to find a way that works for them. I will use a grinder, a Granberg type jig, or a variety of file holders, depending on the situation or what I feel like using at the time. I enjoy checking out different jigs, vises, approaches, etc., focusing on the outcome of sharp, consistent cutters.

I do take exception to spreading of misconceptions, such as that grinders automatically overheat and 'ruin' chains.

I am not making race chains - just working chains for cutting firewood or clearing storm damage, and a well ground chain cuts good enough for that, for me. It is possible to grind a chain to cut faster than new, just as with a file, by changing the angles, increasing hook, etc., along with any associated trade-offs.

It is also possible to get different grinding wheels (similar to using different grades of sandpaper progressively to finish furniture) that leave a smoother finish, but wear faster - these are what I would want to use if we were having a 'filing vs grinding' cutting competition.

And no question, files are much more convenient for touch up sharpening the field.

Again, we don't know what happened with the OP's chains.

Philbert

 

[Andyshine77]

I second that thought. Take several loops into the field and grind them at night afterwards. You have to develop a touch with grinding, just like filing. I have filed new chains the first several times they needed sharpening, and realized when I finally put them on the grinder that the cutters were already different lengths. And I was counting file strokes on each cutter. It's all in the operator whether it's a file or a grinding stone.

Keep in mind most teeth are different lengths out of the box, it's not that big of a deal for the normal firewood hack. I've also seen a few chains with excessive hook out of the box.

 

[CTYank]

Wow people sure are touchy about how they sharpen chains. Did I assume the chain was overheated? you bet I did, whoever sharpened it obviously has no clue, and you and I both know how easy it is to overheat the teeth. I pay close attention to the tooth lengths and angles. I found that slight top plate angle variations, means a lot less than proper hook. I had an Oregon 511A grinder, it had quite a bit of flex, and it wasn't very accurate because of this.





Like I said never used Kool Grind, from you're description it's exactly what I that it was.



I've honestly never ran a machine round ground chain that could come close to a well hand filed chain.

But wait, there's more (of course.)

Kinda hard to take a grinder out in the woods, so you take a bag of chains. Okay when near a road.

You're never going to "refresh" a given chain as many times over its life-span with a grinder as with a properly guided file. Grinder simply takes off too much metal, for so-so product, IMO. Chain's getting pricier, too.

The whole "clock-watching" thing is, to me, counter-productive for safety. Getting in any sort of blind rush with chainsaws is not a good idea. Much, much preferable to periodically hydrate and touch up a chain, every couple of tanks or so out in the woods, get your pulse rate down, and THINK ahead. Avoids serious slow-downs.

 

[Woodsman1]

I am really getting to like the Pferd tool. It takes down the cutters and rakers evenly. A few strokes before cutting on each tooth and it cuts like new. Quite a clever device and I learned about it here. fresh files make a difference, how many times do you use them before pitching?

 

[angelo c]

I am really getting to like the Pferd tool. It takes down the cutters and rakers evenly. A few strokes before cutting on each tooth and it cuts like new. Quite a clever device and I learned about it here. fresh files make a difference, how many times do you use them before pitching?

fresh files is usually a big reason why most people struggle with hand filing/sharpening. We hang on to old files like they were religious artifacts....

 

[Rockjock]

I am really getting to like the Pferd tool. It takes down the cutters and rakers evenly. A few strokes before cutting on each tooth and it cuts like new. Quite a clever device and I learned about it here. fresh files make a difference, how many times do you use them before pitching?

What did that tool cost you? I just watched a video on youtube and it looks exactly like the stihl one I have.. hmmmm :hmm3grin2orange:

 

[tolman_paul]

(snip)

Grinder simply takes off too much metal, for so-so product, IMO. Chain's getting pricier, too.

The whole "clock-watching" thing is, to me, counter-productive for safety. Getting in any sort of blind rush with chainsaws is not a good idea. Much, much preferable to periodically hydrate and touch up a chain, every couple of tanks or so out in the woods, get your pulse rate down, and THINK ahead. Avoids serious slow-downs.

If your experience with a grinder is from a saw shop that takes off 1/3 the length of the tooth and charges you 1/2 the price of a new chain, I can understand your negative thought about grinders. That was what I found when using the local shop to sharpen my chains. But your thoughts are based on someone who doesn't know how to use a grinder.

Next time I grind a chain I'll measure the amount ground off with a caliper. I'd venture to say that a light pass is taking off only a few thousandths of an inch and 0.005" is as heavy as I'd want to take on one pass. Whether you use a file or a grinder, you only have to take off so much metal to get a sharp tooth. It comes down to the experience of the person sharpening the chain to only take off enough metal to sharpen the chain and not prematurely wear it out.

There is a difference between racing the clock and being efficient with your time. The whole reason to use a chainsaw is as a time and labor saving device. That same approach can be taken with how one maintains their saw.