Anyone Having Trouble Finding Climbers?

[imagineero]

To my mind, a good climber is one who consistently gets the job done efficiently and safely. There are many ways to skin a cat though!

There are many skills that make a good climber, and I'm going to leave out the obvious stuff like not being on drugs, alcholic, not showing up to work etc, and concentrate purely on what makes someone a good climber. There are 4 skills needed in my opinion ; climbing, rigging, cutting and planning.

Climbing is the most obvious one, but it's only a small part of the job. Nothing wrong with using a wraptor for example! Younger climbers are often quick, and gutsy, but they often use more energy than they need to due to lack of planning experience. There are many different ways to climb, but a good climber can get to any part of the tree, and position himself for working safely ie. not teeter tottering, tied in with two points of attachment. Small trees are easy enough, but big trees are where it starts to show whether you're any good of a climber. Some climbers have the skill, but not the head for it. Being able to get right out to the tips, getting into awkward positions, using your ropes in clever ways to enable you to reach all parts of the tree. Some guys aren't all that quick at 'climbing' itself, but by using good ropework and planning, they get around the tree just as fast. Bad climbers have none of these characteristics. They're slow, awkward, plan their climb poorly, and use dangerous methods to try to speed themselves up a bit.

Cutting getting in the tree is only part of the job. We're in the tree to get some work done right? That work generally involves cutting, whether it's a trim or a removal. For a lot of climbers, cutting is where the game is won or lost. If you're real good with a saw, you have a lot of control. You can fall out big sections in the tree into tight spaces. You may be able to fold branches where another less confident cutter had to rig them - big time difference there! If you know how to flat drop (ie. not fold!) big sections then you can take them out without them bouncing and damaging property. Spearing, jumping, flat dropping, fold, twisting and hinging are all cuts that will let you get work done quick. Production is the name of the game for most companies, and an average climber who is an ace with a saw will get more work done in a day than a guy who is a brilliant fast climber but only knows a couple basic cuts. I know plenty of good climbers that just don't know any cuts. They end up taking out trees in tiny little pieces because they have no control over the pieces they are cutting. You need a lot of experience with different species of trees to know what you can do with them in terms of cuts also.

Rigging even the best cutter is going to get into plenty of trees with limited or no LZ. Big trees that are tall will often come down faster than smaller spreading trees assuming they both have the same number of targets underneath, because you can rig out huge sections from tall trees. There's more room to swing things! Lower trees are often more technically difficult. Being good at rigging, and having a good groundie lets you achieve a whole bunch of production, safely. There's bread and butter rigging; quickly establishing 2 pulleys in appropriate places so you've got two lower off points to work, knowing your knots etc... then there's more complex stuff too. Multiple rigging points, floating rigging points, rigging combined with pull ropes, highlining, speedlining, tip and tail lower offs, lifting, and a whole bunch of cool stuff that you can think up if you've got a mind for it.

Planning This is where it comes together. Knowing when to cut and when to rig, knowing the order to take a tree apart in, having the experience to know how things are going to unfold and where the dangers are. Lots of older climbers aren't actually great climbers, but they get a lot more production done, efficiently and safely due to their planning. This really comes into play with very large trees, and jobs with multiple trees. The approach you take to the job, and the decisions you make about how to do them can easily halve the time needed or more! Some guys have a natural talent for this, and some don't.

It's rare to find a climber that is gifted in all 4 areas. Most climbers have one or two areas they are talented in, and that's enough for them to achieve production. Truely gifted climbers have talents in all the above

 

[deevo]

I would hook up the chipper and go to canada ehhhhhhh ! But I heard its cold there I dont look good in a parka , and I heard that other then Canadian bacon the food sucks ! Deevo would prolly slash all my tires and cut my ropes anyway !

Hey I wouldn't do that too ya big guy! Our poutine is good also! Also have some other good eats. Ever try moose or caribou? Dude Tim Hortons rocks also

 

[Thillmaine1]

I'd travel south for a few months if the money was right. Pm me for more info. CDL A, ISA cert, bucket, crane and manual experience. Rigging proficient.

 

[Zale]

Sure do.

Whenever somebody tells me "At this point in my life, I feel I have it all down.", alarm bells go off in my head. There is always something new to learn in our industry. We all have egos, myself included, but don't let your ego get in the way of learning.

As far as being a climber, I can't comment because I have never seen you climb. You certainly have the beard part down pretty good. You look like a rough and tough tree climber. Stay safe.

 

[imagineero]

That might be a bit of an overstatement. Climbers do at some point reach maturity, where they become aware of their own skills and limitations, and know what they are capable of and what is possible to achieve. Beyond that they really don't develop all that much honestly, there's only so much you can learn. At that point climbers become useful, so long as they don't become complacent or jaded. There really isn't all that much new stuff to learn once you know it. Having said that, 95% of climbers really haven't got there yet, and still have unrealised potential. For those who have reached their potential, the danger comes in tuning out.

 

[sgreanbeans]

I let a guy try out for a climbing position, last year. I have a course set in my tree, in my front yard. He made it to the first crotch, ten feet up, and then things got funny: He got his lanyard set and that was it. He kept tying and untying knots in his climbing line and looking up and down. Twenty minutes later, and by that time I can do the whole course, he was still standing in that first crotch. "Come on down, man! I thought you told me you were a climber---" "Yeah, but that was a couple of years ago. I guess I forgot everything I knew, since then." "Thanks for stopping by, man. Call me back when you remember everything."

It is amazing what people will say or do to get a job. I resorted to doing that too, making them go up a tree at my house "dont tell me, show me". Have had lots of guys want to come work for me, only to be a complete tool in the tree. Only one time did I get a kid that was a stud from the word go (wild thing), great climber but had tons of personal issues. Its very hard to get someone that can actually do the work and have it together at home. If ya train someone, and they have the mindset for it, often you just end up training your future competition. In special occasions, you will get the guy that is just naturally dangerous, ya tell him that he needs to find something else to do before he gets killed, instead of taking your advice, he goes out and tries to do this on his own and becomes a notable hack. Always getting hurt or tearing something up.

 

[kyle goddard]

Whenever somebody tells me "At this point in my life, I feel I have it all down.", alarm bells go off in my head. There is always something new to learn in our industry. We all have egos, myself included, but don't let your ego get in the way of learning.

As far as being a climber, I can't comment because I have never seen you climb. You certainly have the beard part down pretty good. You look like a rough and tough tree climber. Stay safe.

When i said i have it all down i mean that i have the tools in my head to figure out what ever task i have at hand.

As far as learning. It never stops. I can go on and on.

That being said id like to get the new study guide to become CA. The one i have now is the 1992 edition thats was my fathers.
Im in now rush , im happy where im at for now.

 

[treeclimber101]

I'm in a rush now I've heard they've dumbed it down for the Mexicans to pass .... So I am gonna register this month , hopefully they have a test date mid spring then I am gonna come on here and throw my credentials around and no one will question my madness because I'm "certified"

 

[2treeornot2tree]

They have one at the end of February at the penn del isa trade show in lancaster, pa.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

 

[treeman75]

I'm in a rush now I've heard they've dumbed it down for the Mexicans to pass .... So I am gonna register this month , hopefully they have a test date mid spring then I am gonna come on here and throw my credentials around and no one will question my madness because I'm "certified"

Does NJ have a state cert, you might want to check with them. Iowa doesnt have much of a arb program but Neb and SD do and Sioux City goes into both states. Im getting mine from SD and think people around here will recognize it more than the ISA.

 

[treeclimber101]

Does NJ have a state cert, you might want to check with them. Iowa doesnt have much of a arb program but Neb and SD do and Sioux City goes into both states. Im getting mine from SD and think people around here will recognize it more than the ISA.

Supposedly there is a state test that makes you a state certified master arborist , kinda like a master plumber . But this state makes up all kinda of rules and regs and then can't enforce them so I have given up on there requests so I am just gonna do it through the ISA I guess even though I can't really stand them and then see if it grandfathers me in on any up and coming state license

 

[sgreanbeans]

Go for the ISA one, way more recognized. State ones don't necessarily reflect what a Arborist should be or know, rather, they want to make sure you know the state regs for contractors, the Arb info that they do have, is basically cut and pasted from the ISA anyhow. Iowa really does not have anything. Why its like the wild west, full of wackjobs and hackers. We have the IAA, it is a small outfit, but good. T-75, you should join, only 25 doll hairs.

 

[sgreanbeans]

When i said i have it all down i mean that i have the tools in my head to figure out what ever task i have at hand.

As far as learning. It never stops. I can go on and on.

That being said id like to get the new study guide to become CA. The one i have now is the 1992 edition thats was my fathers.
Im in now rush , im happy where im at for now.

That 1992 book is probably harder than the new ones. Also, u guys need to check and see if you have the computer based exams close to you, if so, you can take it anytime. Before I was called back to play Jarhead, I had set up testing several times, over the course of several years, paid the money and was all set. Then something would happen that would prevent me from going and I would miss the date. Funerals, storms, etc. When I came home, I called to set up another, learned about the computer deal and drove about 2 miles from my house. Think they are called Pearson Testing.

 

[sgreanbeans]

With all that said. If you do go and get ur certs, don't be like the dycks around here and get it just for the paper. Practice the way of the force. Here, they still top trees and spike prunes. Trim oaks middle of summer, anything to make some coin, no ethics whatsoever. If you actually read and retain it, you will be better for it.

 

[Pelorus]

That being said id like to get the new study guide to become CA. The one i have now is the 1992 edition thats was my fathers.

Don't waste your money buying a new one. The 1992 ed. is all I have, and all you need.
Mine has been dog-eared and underlined and highlighted to death.

 

[kyle goddard]

I would never spike a prune. Unless it had a huge dead top and i was going to block it out. No spiking what im preserving. I also would never top a tree. I had done it years ago. Shame on me. I have refrained from it. Im not afraid to admit i have made lots of mistakes. Not only in tree care. If it wasnt for huge life changes i would not be on here talking with you all. Im happy to say im much better at evening i do clean and sober. All the time.

 

[kyle goddard]

I would never spike a prune. Unless it had a huge dead top and i was going to block it out. No spiking what im preserving. I also would never top a tree. I had done it years ago. Shame on me. I have refrained from it. Im not afraid to admit i have made lots of mistakes. Not only in tree care. If it wasnt for huge life changes i would not be on here talking with you all. Im happy to say im much better at evening i do clean and sober. All the time.

 

[404 in the ATL]

I've had the idea of trying to recruit military personal like Rangers or recon, someone who has had lots of experience with ropes. Then training them in climbing. Any thoughts?

 

[imagineero]

I think the market is very different in the US from how it is in aus. We also have a different qualification system. We have chainsaw tickets, which you can pick up in a day or two - levels 1 through 5. They're about $600 a go, and get increasingly more complex. Level 2 is like basic cross cutting and chainsaw maintenace (sharpening), 3 is basic falling right up to 5 which is more complex falling. Forest workers tend to get these tickets, but sometimes ground workers will get a chainsaw cert also.

Then we have a certificate in arboriculture, there is no level 1 or level 4. There's 2, 3 and 5. Level 2 & 3 are for what we call 'utility arborists' which doesn't mean they do utility work, it just means they do tree work as opposed to consulting work. Level 2 takes 12 months, one day a week. It's 6 months theory and 6 months climbing and is intended to be paired with actual work experience but it isn't a requirement. You learn all the basics; setting ropes, knots, basic climbing, spiking, saw operation, use of a flipline, basic cutting techniques with a handsaw and chainsaw and basic pruning and rigging. In theory you learn tree structure, tree species, soils, diseases, occupational health and safety and basic tree inspection as well as a few other subjects. Level 3 is much the same but more advanced and also requires 12 months with the 6/6 split of climbing and theory but more advanced than level 2. It also covers aerial rescue. If you're an experienced tree worker you can get exemption for some, or all of the course depending on your skills and knowledge. The delivery of the courses depends on the instructors and can be excellent or very poor. The quality of the students also varies greatly. Some have been climbing 20+ years and are veteran experts who just need the ticket for work. Some have never used a saw in their life. At the end of level 3, some guys still are unable to perform even the most basic take down with any sort of competence, while some we already competent before entering the classes. The ratio of good climbers to guys who will never deserve to get paid work seems to be about 15:1, and the 1 was already competent before he got there.

Level 5 is 2 years of straight theory and is intended for consulting arborists. Aside from all that we also have other tickets for electrical work (CATT) and tickets for cherry picker work etc.

What I see a lot of with the guys going to school is that they aren't working in the industry at all, like not even one day. They do 2 years study to get their level 3, and think they can walk into $500/day contract work. They've never dragged a branch in their life, and aren't interested in starting at the bottom. They get a very rude shock when they do bluff their way into a climbing job at the end of it all and are fired in less than an hour! These guys aren't climbers at all, and have no concept of climbing or production tree work. They also seem to have that unfortunately typical attitude of younger australians that they really aren't interested in doing any sort of hard work at all, they just want big money for a very small effort. Otherwise they couldn't be bothered.

I've had some luck with hiring untrained guys and training them up. They start at minimum wage, and if they turn up to work every day and do a good job then after a few months i send them off to get a chainsaw ticket and buy them a pair of chaps. If they keep showing interest and working, I train them up in saw use, running ropes, chipping, knots, tree species, basic pruning and basic falling. If they're still around after 9 months and show some interest and have picked up all the basics then I let them start doing basic climbing. No cutting, just getting in and around the tree. From there, they might do a little handsaw pruning. After a year I send them off to level 2 training, and they're very far ahead of the curve. The last guy I sent off was the only guy to get exempted in his class from saw training.

If I'm lucky I can then hang on to them for a further 6 months and get some return from all that training Ive put in by having them do basic climbs while I'm doing other trees. After a year and a half I pretty much have to cut them loose though, they either go to get a better paying job with a bigger company, or start out doing their own work. It's a never ending cycle.

 

[BC WetCoast]

I think part of the problem is the wages available to be paid to these climbers. They aren't high enough to entice young guys/girls who would make good climbers to enter the industry. We recently had a young guy, smart, ready to learn to climb, but also had his welding ticket. Ended up getting a welding job in a mill for 3x what he was making and twice what our top climbers make. We also had a top foreman leave to drive forklift in a warehouse for significantly more money/work out of the weather/no off days etc. What I'm saying is for talented people (then ones we are trying to entice into the industry) there are much easier ways to make the same money.

We've also lost a couple of guys to municipal crews, where the lowest paid groundman makes about the same as our senior foremen. And as one guy described the workload, take the easiest day at your company and spread it over three days.

Until we can elevate the professionalism of the industry to the point where climbers are considered on par with plumbers/electricians etc then we are going to have difficulty having our customers be willing to pay those labour rates.

If you consider plumbers/electricans etc, when people are going to use these trades, for the most part they have to pull a permit from the local government, then the work has to be inspected at the end of the project by the municipal building/electrical/plumbing inspector. If tree work was considered in the same perspective, then having your work inspected would allow an increase in rates.