Firewood Bid Estimation

[slowp]

Describe minimal impact logging please. That terminology seems to be thrown around quite a bit lately. Just wondering, and what is the logging experience of those using the phrase?

If one is doing genuine logging, there will be impact, unless using a helicopter. Even helicopter operations leave a trace or some smashed vegetation, maybe some scarring to leave trees.

Ruts? If rutting is a concern, don't log when it is wet. If the area stays wet your choices are don't log it, log it when frozen solid and get out before it thaws which can be very hard to do, or use a non-ground based skidding/yarding method.

 

[FLRA_Dave]

Describe minimal impact logging please. That terminology seems to be thrown around quite a bit lately. Just wondering, and what is the logging experience of those using the phrase?

If one is doing genuine logging, there will be impact, unless using a helicopter. Even helicopter operations leave a trace or some smashed vegetation, maybe some scarring to leave trees.

Ruts? If rutting is a concern, don't log when it is wet. If the area stays wet your choices are don't log it, log it when frozen solid and get out before it thaws which can be very hard to do, or use a non-ground based skidding/yarding method.

I guess my take on it was doing your best not to tear stuff up to begin with, but it will happen, and reasonable repairing of what damage you have done. I suppose reasonable is subjective. I have heard of a few people in my area that couldn't believe what kind of mess was left behind. Not saying all are like that... probably needs to be spelled out in the contract, but the landowner just assumed (you know how that goes) that it would look pretty when it was done. I have gone as far as getting out a rake and shovel to take care of tire marks / ruts, but that was smaller jobs.

 

[slowp]

How deep do you allow ruts to get?

Does your state have Best Management Practices--BMPs? Harvest plans? Logger accredation?

 

[FLRA_Dave]

How deep do you allow ruts to get?

Does your state have Best Management Practices--BMPs? Harvest plans? Logger accredation?

My deepest were probably around 16"-18" when I used my 8N. anything deeper and I don't think I would be going too far. As far as the BMP's go... Not a clue. I would have to look into it.

 

[FLRA_Dave]

Looks like they do for water quality... http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/lands_forests_pdf/dlfbmpguide.pdf
Lots of other nice info on the DEC site as well. Going to read some of that.

 

[slowp]

The guidelines that the forest I worked for used, were no operations if ruts exceeded 6 inches deep for a distance of 10 feet. Do you backblade them? Construct waterbars after skidding is done if on a slope? I realize we were very strict, but we also required that skid trail locations, and landings be flagged in and approved by the forester before falling began. Equipment, except for a feller buncher if used, was required to stay on those trails. That way, you are not running to each log and impacting a lot of ground. We shot for 10% of the acreage to be used for skid trails. That means line pulling if a feller buncher or shovel is not being used to bunch logs near the skid trails. The loggers are used to these requirements.

Keeping damage to a minimum while logging is one thing, and doing the "cleanup" work after the logs are out is another. Both are important.

If you are in the logger referral business, are you driving out and watching operations? Finding out who did what area?

My friend was hesitant about logging her place, again. She runs the family tree farm and had witnessed some poor practices. Another friend and I suggested she go look at a nearby operation to see what good logging looked like. She did and she hired the outfit to log her place. The logger was exceptional, has been to the classes we have in our state for logger accredation, and asked what she wanted the stand to look like after logging. She told him. He asked to log it without her marking the trees to take--he used a processor. She nervously agreed and ended up with a beautiful stand left. The guy was one with his processor, his skidder operator had worked for him for ages and did what he was told, and there was a brother who specialized in road building.

A beauty of a job, although you could tell where the skid trails were afterwards. The guys did not work when it was too wet so there were no ruts, plus they used a high track grapple cat for skidding. Sometimes tracks are better than wheels. Using how deep the ruts can get before you get stuck as a rule is not acceptable in our world.

Equipment and operator know how, plus some involvement by the landowner or a hired forester type, and a contract specifying what is acceptable, is what will get you minimal impact.

 

[FLRA_Dave]

The guidelines that the forest I worked for used, were no operations if ruts exceeded 6 inches deep for a distance of 10 feet. Do you backblade them? Construct waterbars after skidding is done if on a slope? I realize we were very strict, but we also required that skid trail locations, and landings be flagged in and approved by the forester before falling began. Equipment, except for a feller buncher if used, was required to stay on those trails. That way, you are not running to each log and impacting a lot of ground. We shot for 10% of the acreage to be used for skid trails. That means line pulling if a feller buncher or shovel is not being used to bunch logs near the skid trails. The loggers are used to these requirements.

Keeping damage to a minimum while logging is one thing, and doing the "cleanup" work after the logs are out is another. Both are important.

If you are in the logger referral business, are you driving out and watching operations? Finding out who did what area?

My friend was hesitant about logging her place, again. She runs the family tree farm and had witnessed some poor practices. Another friend and I suggested she go look at a nearby operation to see what good logging looked like. She did and she hired the outfit to log her place. The logger was exceptional, has been to the classes we have in our state for logger accredation, and asked what she wanted the stand to look like after logging. She told him. He asked to log it without her marking the trees to take--he used a processor. She nervously agreed and ended up with a beautiful stand left. The guy was one with his processor, his skidder operator had worked for him for ages and did what he was told, and there was a brother who specialized in road building.

A beauty of a job, although you could tell where the skid trails were afterwards. The guys did not work when it was too wet so there were no ruts, plus they used a high track grapple cat for skidding. Sometimes tracks are better than wheels. Using how deep the ruts can get before you get stuck as a rule is not acceptable in our world.

Equipment and operator know how, plus some involvement by the landowner or a hired forester type, and a contract specifying what is acceptable, is what will get you minimal impact.

Yes, I did use my back blade to take care of ruts. And I moved soil from a pile that the landowner designated as fill for the rutting.

 

[FLRA_Dave]

Just got an update. He is letting me take wood out and paying as it comes out until he gets a winning bid and will give me 2 weeks notice before they start. Works for me!

 

[philoshop]

Slowp,
All good points and good information but,
Dave is a guy with a tractor and a couple of saws looking to pick up some extra firewood to sell. Low-impact in this case means spending more time cutting than repairing damage. A little different type of operation on a different scale from what you're describing and from what you're experienced with I'd suspect.

Good deal, Dave. Have fun and be safe.

 

[cantoo]

Some people can't see the forest for the trees.
Take a look at the pictures he has posted of the areas that he is "firewood logging" then go look at the pictures of the next lot he is looking at. Pretty simple even for someone not in the business. Philshop is right and that's exactly what I meant. In Dave's case "low impact" means he isn't making a damn mess of the bush. And this isn't State land it's someone's own property and I'm betting they are proud of it. One of the bushes that I cut at we don't even drive back there if it's muddy even though the farmer routinely rips up the trail doing his farm work. I'm his guest so I treat it with respect. Now the fellas that did the logging, they ripped the place up, paid by the tree not by hugs and smiles.

 

[cantoo]

This is the bush we were getting tops out of. When it's muddy we walk in and just trim branches off tops. 1st is limbwood piled up. 2nd my truck loaded in the fall. Skidding trail in front of pic is also our 4 wheeler trail so it gets lots of traffic. 3rd is bodywood and big tops piled up on logs because we didn't need it that year. 4th is my truck full of Swedish candles cut in the fall after corn was off and before ground was wet and ploughed. The farmer loves us. I think Dave does the same type of work, it's more of a hobby that a get er cut and get em out job. This is the Firewood forum not the Forestry and logging forum.

 

[woodchuck357]

Seems weird, when first reading OP I thought the biding was how much you were going to charge the land owner! Around here I get paid to cut tops left from logging, plus get all of the wood.

 

[FLRA_Dave]

Seems weird, when first reading OP I thought the biding was how much you were going to charge the land owner! Around here I get paid to cut tops left from logging, plus get all of the wood.

Getting paid to remove the tops and keeping the wood? Wouldn't that be something...

 

[slowp]

I would at least take some pictures of the bush the way it is. Mud roads and small tree damage. It would be a good selling point for having you in there and do minimal impact logging vrs big equipment logging. Don't take pictures of the equipment or mention names though, nobody likes that.

This phrase worried me. You are calling it logging, and when you do things like run equipment in the mud until you bog down, you are making logging look bad. Make up your mind, are you logging? Or "just getting firewood". I bet the people driving by can't tell the difference, maybe you ought to put up a tacky big sign--I AM MERELY CUTTING FIREWOOD SO IT IS OK TO TEAR UP THE GROUND.

 

[FLRA_Dave]

This phrase worried me. You are calling it logging, and when you do things like run equipment in the mud until you bog down, you are making logging look bad. Make up your mind, are you logging? Or "just getting firewood". I bet the people driving by can't tell the difference, maybe you ought to put up a tacky big sign--I AM MERELY CUTTING FIREWOOD SO IT IS OK TO TEAR UP THE GROUND.

I beginning to think you are mistaken on what's going on. I haven't worked this property at all. The pictures posted were from the guys the mill sent to pull the saw logs out. I don't do any "real" logging. Attached is the worst section of rutting that I have done and I took care of it before I left the property.

 

[philoshop]

I hate to harp on it Slowp. It's not 'logging' as you know it. Nowhere near that scale. Not logging at all. It's grabbing some firewood while doing as little damage as possible because you know you'll have to fix the damage you do when you're done.
Dave started this post asking what we thought about trying to salvage some firewood from the tops on a piece of property that has already seen damage from the commercial loggers who were contracted to harvest the lumber part of the trees.
Everyone here thought that it probably wasn't a good deal for him. Not because he would do any additional damage to the property, (he doesn't have the equipment or manpower to screw it up any more than it already is) but because it looked like a bad deal. He'd spend more time getting his tractor unstuck than actually cutting firewood.
Talking about feller-bunchers, high-grapples, and helicopter operations really doesn't work in this context.

 

[zogger]

I hate to harp on it Slowp. It's not 'logging' as you know it. Nowhere near that scale. Not logging at all. It's grabbing some firewood while doing as little damage as possible because you know you'll have to fix the damage you do when you're done.
Dave started this post asking what we thought about trying to salvage some firewood from the tops on a piece of property that has already seen damage from the commercial loggers who were contracted to harvest the lumber part of the trees.
Everyone here thought that it probably wasn't a good deal for him. Not because he would do any additional damage to the property, (he doesn't have the equipment or manpower to screw it up any more than it already is) but because it looked like a bad deal. He'd spend more time getting his tractor unstuck than actually cutting firewood.
Talking about feller-bunchers, high-grapples, and helicopter operations really doesn't work in this context.

Go ahead and harp on it. That nattering nabob of negativity is a serious downer over here in firewood.

 

[cantoo]

slowp, to understand what some of us here do you need to go here. ---> http://www.arboristsite.com/community/forums/forestry-and-logging-forum.5/ Come back when we send you a message.
This is the way we here (firewood burners) do logging sure to a real logger it isn't logging it's firewooding but whatever we all know what it means. I really don't care what you think about my phrase I'm pretty sure every other person reading this thread understands. We here (firewood forum) usually have to look the actual landowner in the face, it's not some guy from the State, it's the person who pays taxes on the property, lives on the property and wants it treated like they want it treated. Very few of them would be pleased if we left the bush looking like the one in the pictures. Sure there are some owners out they that wouldn't care but I would and I refuse to leave any property looking like that. And for me there is no money in doing something like that and risking my valuable equipment digging in the mud. I don't like cutting dirty wood either. I have done logging in the past and the guy I worked for still has a reputation of doing a good job and is still in business well his son owns it all now but they still log every day. Now if you are still here I have a suggestion, you want to keep people from moving to Washington State, get a job in the Welcome Center.

 

[svk]

Now if you are still here I have a suggestion, you want to keep people from moving to Washington State, get a job in the Welcome Center.

 

[olyman]

seems more than a few,,got her nonumber......................