Advice on cutting straight on trunks of hardish wood

[pioneerguy600]

Please drop the political out of this thread guys or I will be forced to start deleting such posts.

 

[lone wolf]

You've lost me there Lone Wolf.

Never mind!

 

[MattG]

If you take your new chain and study it closely before ever touching it with a file,take notice of the shape of the side of the cutter tooth, place your file in the curvature of that cutter under the top plate and actually inspect it closely. Try to make the file fit and follow the existing angles and when fitting its best make mental notes or even take picts for future reference. The angles and shapes of an original chain is a good starting point for a new filer, these can be improved upon with experience but its best to master getting the chain sharp and consistent first. Do the same thing with the depth gauge tool for the fit and placement. The best part of the bar for filing and depth gauge checking would about mid point of the bars length, the flattest or straightest part of the bar. I have several sets of those cheap plastic calipers I use for checking tooth length, they won`t dull a cutter and are perfectly fine for sizing regular tooth size/length.

Thanks pioneer, I've been using the stihl file mounted gauge for the last year or so for the cutters.

Do you think I should just use the file alone? And just try to follow the angle marking which is stamped on the tooth?

 

[pioneerguy600]

I have tried just about all of the filing guides made out there, mostly due to being asked to do so and give my opinion on them. They are fine for the very new to filing individual but not at all for myself. They do keep the chain reasonably consistant in shape and size for a new filer but will never let a new filer ever get the hang of free hand filing. Free handing is a feel of the file in the hands and the use of the eye in making the tooth the shape you want it. Of course you need to know what shape you want it for each type of wood you are filing/shaping the cutter for first so that is why its best to try and copy what a new chain looks like first. Get that down really well first and then start experimenting with new stuff. Follow the etched angle on the top plate for the first couple dozen times you sharpen the chain, that will cut well enough for most. After that you would need to be cutting in different types/species of wood to learn what the chain needs to be sharpened like for best cutting results.

 

[MattG]

I have tried just about all of the filing guides made out there, mostly due to being asked to do so and give my opinion on them. They are fine for the very new to filing individual but not at all for myself. They do keep the chain reasonably consistant in shape and size for a new filer but will never let a new filer ever get the hang of free hand filing. Free handing is a feel of the file in the hands and the use of the eye in making the tooth the shape you want it. Of course you need to know what shape you want it for each type of wood you are filing/shaping the cutter for first so that is why its best to try and copy what a new chain looks like first. Get that down really well first and then start experimenting with new stuff. Follow the etched angle on the top plate for the first couple dozen times you sharpen the chain, that will cut well enough for most. After that you would need to be cutting in different types/species of wood to learn what the chain needs to be sharpened like for best cutting results.

Thanks again, pioneer, I used my new 25" chain for 6 cuts through 18-25" cherry. I didn't hit any mud. Is that still new enough to gauge what a new chain looks like? I mean it still looks it! Except for a bit of wood gunge.

 

[HarleyT]

I think it has to do with feces.......

 

[lone wolf]

I think it has to do with feces.......

You an expert on feces? Like you are on everything else?

 

[HarleyT]

You an expert on feces? Like you are on everything else?

I sense a little bit of anger in this one......
Must need a good colon cleansing......

 

[MattG]

I'm not sure whether this thread has been demolished by now.... Shame I could have used some more clues/opinions about stuff, e.g. using the depth gauge right, measuring the cutter lengths, (e.g. where on the chain etc.), perhaps some piccies, links, etc.

 

[Homeowner]

I'm not sure whether this thread has been demolished by now.... Shame I could have used some more clues/opinions about stuff, e.g. using the depth gauge right, measuring the cutter lengths, (e.g. where on the chain etc.), perhaps some piccies, links, etc.

There seem to be different kind of depth gauges, old Carlton model which is progressive depth gauge, then modern Oregon/Stihl depth gauges which are setting constantly same level.

I did read someplace that when cutters get shorter one should increase the raker - cutter gap.

One logger told me that he files rakers to angle, instead of filing them flat like what would happen if you keep depth gauge on chain while filing.

You can see how new rakers have that kind of angle, maintaining that might be one thing to do and perhaps avoid making flat tops for rakers, I have not used much saw lately, but that is what I will do to chain when going to lower rakers on next sharpening.

I found some depth gauges from shop's storage room that are new unsold items from 70's, I'm not all too sure about usage either, I can push depth gauge down from the tip where is slot for raker or I can keep it flat against cutters. I guess it is supposed to be kept flat against cutters, I need to experiment and learn about how to use that properly.

Another challenge for me is to know if tools I found actually match for .325 chain, I know that filing guide that was in same package, seems to be for old 3/8" chain, but those depth gauges seemed not to match so well with old big 3/8 chain, they did match better with .325 chain, but still not sure if I tried to use it correct way.

In this video someone is trying to explain how it is done:


I would like to check with gauge, but file without gauge so that I could keep top of raker angled, not sure if more experienced guys think that is necessary or beneficial to do so?

edit: This one shows another type of depth gauge tool which type I have and yes, it is bit of flimsy if I would try to file with holding gauge on chain:


Oh and when you measure cutter length, just measure each cutter same way, I usually just eyeball my cutter lengths to be about the same, few days ago I bought a grinder tool so that makes it lot easier to set all cutters to same length.

 

[Philbert]

And given that a bar has slight curvature, where's the best point to postion the current tooth, I'm guessing the middle of the bar?
I might at some stage also need help measuring cutter lengths

There is always the question of 'when is it good enough for what I need?'. Even if you can measure differences in depth gauge height, or cutter length to a few thousands of an inch, must people would never be able to notice these differences while cutting in a practical sense. We are cutting firewood, not machining metal.

The basic depth gauge tools (shown in Post#90 above) are a simple way to measure the relative height of depth gauges compared to an adjacent tooth or teeth. There are fixed height versions, adjustable height versions, 'progressive' versions (not getting political in here!), angular measurements, etc. You can use a straight edge across adjacent teeth and feeler gauges. Some guys have bought cheap, digital tire depth gauges off of eBay for this purpose. Aside from from saw freaks shooting the breeze, most of these, beyond the basic tools, are way beyond what most people need.

Start with the basic, factory recommendations and measuring tools. If your chain is not aggressive enough, or you want to experiment, take an extra pass or two with the file on each one. Try to be consistent.

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/depth-gauge-tools-for-saw-chain.279374/
http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...ly-progressive-depth-raker-generators.114624/
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/depth-gauges-on-a-grinder.200410/

Same thing with cutter length. You want them all about the same, but a few thousandths won't be noticed. You can use a micrometer or caliper. You can use a Cresent wrench or bolt and nut (improvised calipers). You can make marks on a piece of paper. When I grind chains, since they are off the bar, I simply hold a Right and Left cutter back-to-back and eyeball them when setting up.

I have tried just about all of the filing guides made out there, . . . They do keep the chain reasonably consistant in shape and size for a new filer . . . Of course you need to know what shape you want it for each type of wood you are filing/shaping the cutter for first. . .

There seem to be different kind of depth gauges, . . . Another challenge for me is to know if tools I found actually match for .325 chain . . .

Some tools work with any pitch or type of chain. Some are specific to a size, and even brand of chain. Building on what pioneerguy600 said, it helps to understand what you are trying to achieve, and what the individual filing guides, or depth gauge tools do, to help you get there. Some guides try to control the height of the file; some try to control the top plate angle; some try to control the 'down angle'; etc. For most people, it is best to choose one and stick with it, until they are good, or at least 'good enough'. While free-hand filing offers the most flexibility, it is also the least controlled - which means that unless you understand all of the different angles and variable, and have the skill to control them, you will likely see lots of variation between cutters, and from what you may have intended.

Philbert

 

[HuskStihl]

Chainsaws are not really precision instruments. I don't measure anything on a chain. If the cutters are sharp, but it's not making nice chips, I give the rakers a few swipes. Once you can tell what a sharp cutter should look/feel like, the rest is easy.

 

[Sagetown]

I started chainsaw hand filing around the age of 8-9 years old, that was back around 1960 and I am still learning new stuff. It takes time to make hand filing an art but I could do a better job filing at 9 years old than the guys running the saws in the lumber camp I was living in at that time. Through experimentation on my own little details emerged that made the chain cut more efficiently so don`t be afraid to try new things like cutter shape, angles on the top and side plates, depth of the gullets and most importantly the height and even the shape of the depth gauges. Good cutting round files of the proper size for the chain is a must as is a good flat depth gauge file and pay attention to the depth gauge itself, where it is placed on the cutters is important.

This is my teacher. From time to time I check my freehand honing with a sure-fire file guide. Been doing it for, for, well, for years.

 

[pioneerguy600]

This is my teacher. From time to time I check my freehand honing with a sure-fire file guide. Been doing it for, for, well, for years.
View attachment 507416

Those guides are Ok for beginners or for those that do not have the years of experience free hand filing. Myself, I wouldn`t use one until I can no longer see the cutter face or feel a file in my hands. I can keep a chain cutting very well until filed back past the witness line, not everyone can do this so a guide if good for them as it will give them an acceptable cutting chain.

 

[Gypo Logger]

Sounds to me like a filing thread. Everybody files different, but when you can file good, you can file anywhere, on a stump, on your knee, in a vice,on the ground. It's not about moving metal, it's about playing the violin.

 

[MattG]

There seem to be different kind of depth gauges, old Carlton model which is progressive depth gauge, then modern Oregon/Stihl depth gauges which are setting constantly same level.

I did read someplace that when cutters get shorter one should increase the raker - cutter gap.

One logger told me that he files rakers to angle, instead of filing them flat like what would happen if you keep depth gauge on chain while filing.

You can see how new rakers have that kind of angle, maintaining that might be one thing to do and perhaps avoid making flat tops for rakers, I have not used much saw lately, but that is what I will do to chain when going to lower rakers on next sharpening.

I found some depth gauges from shop's storage room that are new unsold items from 70's, I'm not all too sure about usage either, I can push depth gauge down from the tip where is slot for raker or I can keep it flat against cutters. I guess it is supposed to be kept flat against cutters, I need to experiment and learn about how to use that properly.

Another challenge for me is to know if tools I found actually match for .325 chain, I know that filing guide that was in same package, seems to be for old 3/8" chain, but those depth gauges seemed not to match so well with old big 3/8 chain, they did match better with .325 chain, but still not sure if I tried to use it correct way.

In this video someone is trying to explain how it is done:


I would like to check with gauge, but file without gauge so that I could keep top of raker angled, not sure if more experienced guys think that is necessary or beneficial to do so?

edit: This one shows another type of depth gauge tool which type I have and yes, it is bit of flimsy if I would try to file with holding gauge on chain:


Oh and when you measure cutter length, just measure each cutter same way, I usually just eyeball my cutter lengths to be about the same, few days ago I bought a grinder tool so that makes it lot easier to set all cutters to same length.

Thanks Homeowner, that's plenty help! I'll catch up with those vids over the weekend.

There is always the question of 'when is it good enough for what I need?'. Even if you can measure differences in depth gauge height, or cutter length to a few thousands of an inch, must people would never be able to notice these differences while cutting in a practical sense. We are cutting firewood, not machining metal.

The basic depth gauge tools (shown in Post#90 above) are a simple way to measure the relative height of depth gauges compared to an adjacent tooth or teeth. There are fixed height versions, adjustable height versions, 'progressive' versions (not getting political in here!), angular measurements, etc. You can use a straight edge across adjacent teeth and feeler gauges. Some guys have bought cheap, digital tire depth gauges off of eBay for this purpose. Aside from from saw freaks shooting the breeze, most of these, beyond the basic tools, are way beyond what most people need.

Start with the basic, factory recommendations and measuring tools. If your chain is not aggressive enough, or you want to experiment, take an extra pass or two with the file on each one. Try to be consistent.

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/depth-gauge-tools-for-saw-chain.279374/
http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...ly-progressive-depth-raker-generators.114624/
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/depth-gauges-on-a-grinder.200410/

Same thing with cutter length. You want them all about the same, but a few thousandths won't be noticed. You can use a micrometer or caliper. You can use a Cresent wrench or bolt and nut (improvised calipers). You can make marks on a piece of paper. When I grind chains, since they are off the bar, I simply hold a Right and Left cutter back-to-back and eyeball them when setting up.




Some tools work with any pitch or type of chain. Some are specific to a size, and even brand of chain. Building on what pioneerguy600 said, it helps to understand what you are trying to achieve, and what the individual filing guides, or depth gauge tools do, to help you get there. Some guides try to control the height of the file; some try to control the top plate angle; some try to control the 'down angle'; etc. For most people, it is best to choose one and stick with it, until they are good, or at least 'good enough'. While free-hand filing offers the most flexibility, it is also the least controlled - which means that unless you understand all of the different angles and variable, and have the skill to control them, you will likely see lots of variation between cutters, and from what you may have intended.

Philbert

Cheers Philbert. I see what you mean about the possible dangers of free hand filing - i.e. it helps to really appreciate what you are doing first. Perhaps when I get around to rescueing that 20" C I might try 2 strokes in the guide and 1 stroke free handed. Or something. Thanks for the links.

Chainsaws are not really precision instruments. I don't measure anything on a chain. If the cutters are sharp, but it's not making nice chips, I give the rakers a few swipes. Once you can tell what a sharp cutter should look/feel like, the rest is easy.

Fair comment, I could definitely tell that when the 064 got the new 25" chain on. Problem was I quickly ran out of wood!

This is my teacher. From time to time I check my freehand honing with a sure-fire file guide. Been doing it for, for, well, for years.
View attachment 507416

Thanks for this man, more stuff to study.

Well like TimberTool said this has become a filing thread. I've got loads of good tips from all of you. Now I'm done with at least ringing those trunks (I'll split them this winter) I've some time to practise with that tired 20" C. I might play with the dremel and carefully try to grind each tooth back to save me some time with the handwork.

Anyway, glad I posted the thread - I sure learnt a lot more than I thought I would.

Matt

 

[HarleyT]

We hope that everything comes out in rainbow colors!!

 

[Sagetown]

Those guides are Ok for beginners or for those that do not have the years of experience free hand filing. Myself, I wouldn`t use one until I can no longer see the cutter face or feel a file in my hands. I can keep a chain cutting very well until filed back past the witness line, not everyone can do this so a guide if good for them as it will give them an acceptable cutting chain.

Howdy pioneerguy600: Yeah; if I didn't have a vision problem (astigmatism), I wouldn't need a helper either. So, just to keep me straight , I pull that thing out ever so often. Dad, was a professional logger in the 30's, but he found the need to purchase that one from Sears n Roebucks in the early 60's. It'll sure show the bad habits U pick up over time of freehand filing.

 

[pioneerguy600]

Sounds to me like a filing thread. Everybody files different, but when you can file good, you can file anywhere, on a stump, on your knee, in a vice,on the ground. It's not about moving metal, it's about playing the violin.

You know that I get asked more questions about free hand filing and chain sharpening plus chain care, making loops and chain breakers/rivet spinners than I do get questions about chainsaw repairs. I think Philbert had a lot of good picts on a thread once a long time back, may have gotten lost in the ,"hack", but it would be a good idea to start a dedicated chain sharpening thread.

 

[GeorgiaVol]

Yeah, I saved this thread. I can always use more pointers.