Geothermal vs Woodheat

[David Wayne]

Been reading for a year now, Decided to join. Been heating with wood nearly 30 yrs now & trying to figure out why I dont install geothermal. When compared to OWB installed at $10,000- geo at $15,000 both provide domestic hot water, both eliminate fire ,& mess inside, geo gives AC & burns no wood. OWB gives no AC & burns about 10 cord a year. Thats $1,000 worth around here that could be sold & (maybe buy a new saw). Any thoughts? Is there any hope?

 

[hockeypuck]

I am an electrician and have wired geothermal units. RUN AWAY. TEAR UP THE QUOTE, BETTER YET BURN THE QUOTE AND RUN AWAY! Unless you have extremely cheap electric power rates and do not mind the noise and maintenance of a geothermal system, do not do it. There are two types of systems. Closed loop, where water is circulated through tubes in the ground. This is not a bad system, if you live in the right climate. To cold a climate and you freeze the ground. The other is a deep well system, and I would not even consider this as an option. Too much front end expense and up keep.

IMHO Puck

 

[GSP]

Been reading for a year now, Decided to join. Been heating with wood nearly 30 yrs now & trying to figure out why I dont install geothermal. When compared to OWB installed at $10,000- geo at $15,000 both provide domestic hot water, both eliminate fire ,& mess inside, geo gives AC & burns no wood. OWB gives no AC & burns about 10 cord a year. Thats $1,000 worth around here that could be sold & (maybe buy a new saw). Any thoughts? Is there any hope?

A guy put one up here in canada not far from where i live in his new house. I think he paid 22,000. I also burn wood, But my system was around 4000$. The wood boilercost 2700$ plus taxes (18%) and all the fittings ,circulating pumps,zone valves ,mixing valve,infloor plastic hoses and other odds and ends.I also have an oil furace hooked up to that. It was my used one from my old house.If I had to buy a new oil furnace, close to 2000$ plus the fittings and the oil tank and the inspector fee.That would be 1000$.I think you could get it for 7000$. I burn around 12 cords a year. Cut my own wood also.Alot of work to cut and mess in my garage from the wood. If I had the price choice you have for the geo , I'd take that in a second for only 5000$ more.Thats only 33% more. Up here it's 3 times more expensive for geothermal.

 

[SCOOTER]

geo..

Well i'm on my second house with geothermal.. I head approx. 4500 sq.ft. with it, and love it. Never had a problem, and is as quiet as can be. At my office I have geo as well with the well system. Only reason for the well system was that the Power company gave an insentative to install it some 12 years ago. Have had only 3 or 4 repair bils on that on in those 12 years.
I personally wouldn't have anything else if i could afford the up-front cost. I'll put it in the next house I build if I ever build another. I was a contractor and put it in some 8 or 9 houses I built, but was cost probabitive for many people. Hope this helps..

 

[GSP]

I am an electrician and have wired geothermal units. RUN AWAY. TEAR UP THE QUOTE, BETTER YET BURN THE QUOTE AND RUN AWAY! Unless you have extremely cheap electric power rates and do not mind the noise and maintenance of a geothermal system, do not do it. There are two types of systems. Closed loop, where water is circulated through tubes in the ground. This is not a bad system, if you live in the right climate. To cold a climate and you freeze the ground. The other is a deep well system, and I would not even consider this as an option. Too much front end expense and up keep.

IMHO Puck

Puck ,Are those systems very hard on electricity?

 

[SCOOTER]

My electric bill has never been over $100.00 per month, either summer or winter in the last 8 years. Go figure. and no other expense.

 

[GSP]

My electric bill has never been over $100.00 per month, either summer or winter in the last 8 years. Go figure. and no other expense.

Thats pretty good. Did you install the geothermal when the house was knew and if not did the power bill only go up slightly?

 

[SCOOTER]

It was new, as I was the contractor. On the office geo unit, we heat and cool aprox. 6000 sq. ft. , and it runs about 150.00 month there. Usuall in the summer, around 55.00 there to cool it. Like I said , I love it.

 

[hanko]

One must also realize that in a power outage, your geo unit would require a very expensive large back up generator, some where in the neighhbor hood of around 15 to 20 KVA.

 

[hockeypuck]

Puck ,Are those systems very hard on electricity?

I just got done doing repairs on one system and i had the gall to ask the customer what their electric bill was in the dead of winter. She said 750 to 800 bucks a month:jawdrop: .

Now this was deep well system which had a deep well pump, two compressors and two air handlers. I was over their sizing up a generator for them and they were drawing 85 amps when heat was calling.

With all due respect to scooter, he lives in a temperate climate compared to the north east and I have heard they will work fine in climates south of pennsylvania. Scooter may also only be paying 10 cents pkwhr. In new hampshire, we are paying over 16 cents.

If you do install a system, make sure it is by a local outfit that will be around for service. To a untrained service man, the geothermal systems look like a freaking rube goldberg experiment.

 

[Ken05]

Hey Scooter, Can you tell us what your price per kwh is and how many kwh your system uses per month on average? Also unit tonnage and average soil temp would be usefull.Thanks.
Up here the soil temp ave's 45 degrees and elec is .15 cents a kwh so the numbers might be way different.

 

[SCOOTER]

Hey Scooter, Can you tell us what your price per kwh is and how many kwh your system uses per month on average? Also unit tonnage and average soil temp would be usefull.Thanks.
Up here the soil temp ave's 45 degrees and elec is .15 cents a kwh so the numbers might be way different

I will have to check tomorrow at the office to see how much the kwh is, as im not sure. But i do know at 36" we have a soil temp. of 56 degrees. I find that the cooling is much less expense, as you're blowing out very cold air in the summer.

 

[David Wayne]

Not serious enough to get any quotes yet. I have been heating with a Brunco 120 furnace add on for 20 yrs now. $ figures are from people I know that have had them put in within the last couple of years. Both OWB & geo owners like their systems. Some with geo said they turned the water heater off & never run out of hot water in summer when ac is running.This would save $$$. As for generator both OWB & geo would require one if the power went out. Just kicking around the idea. Thanks for the replys.

 

[Kenora]

I am going to install a lake loop Geothermal unit on the house I'm building next year. The house is 1056 sq/ft with a full walkout basement so 2200 heated sq/ft, the side facing the lake is all windows and we are building in the frigid north. The system (Waterfurnace) is about $15000.
It's HOT during the brief summer (+30c) and damn COLD in the long winter (-40c is common...today its -25c).
I have a friend one lake away with a bigger place that heats and cools for a total of $600/year.
Construction will be ARXX insulated concrete form basement level and 2X6 with 1" rigid Styrofoam on the exterior, roof will be R60; thats typical here now.
Our electric rates are 6.2c/kw hr (if I read the bill right). Then there are an additional $30/month in line maintenance and rip off fees.
The alternative is heating oil at 93c/liter.
Oh, a ground loop is out (sitting on granite, and the water freezes to a depth of about 4 ft in February, lake bottom water temp is about 45f (7c).

 

[hornett22]

wood heat irritates the greenies.

so it is #1 in my book.

 

[blis]

over here geothermal is a good choice, the machines cost somewhere around 7ke or so but once you get em installed and all its pretty much free, since if its done right it shouldnt draw that much power...
I know some houses that heat up nicely allaround a year with ONLY geothermal and last winter we had some month or so below -25c constant...

 

[Al Smith]

Well,first of all I'm an electrician also.I bought a 7 year old Hydra-Delta geothermal unit a plumbing contractor could not make work for 700 bucks.72,000 btu cooling,67,500 heating.Obviously I got it working,it's kind of how I make my living.

I have it running off a well with 53.9 degree water and it does pretty good except about once a year for some reason or another I have to give it a shot of freon 22 .Where pray tell it goes is anybodies guess.I've sniffed it out but can't find the leak.If all I do is run the geo my electric bill runs around 225 -250 or so to heat and about 150 to cool,depending on how hot or cold it is.The electric is about 7.5 to 8 cents per KWH.

I save about 100 to 125 per month or more burning wood .The rest of the house is total electric, plus I have an aerobic sewer system which alone adds 25 bucks a month to the bill.

I have had to tinker with that thing a time or two though,valves,electrical controls and such.If it weren't for the fact I know refridgeration I suppose the repair bills would have been pretty high.

 

[blackdoggy]

Talk to one of your HVAC companies in your area and see if anyone has electronic sniffer for refrigerant. That little gizmo will pickup a fly fart if it smells like refrigerant gas.

 

[Mr. Obvious]

Don't really know why someone would spend $20,000 + up front (usually borrowed) to save a few hundred per year. How many years to break even on that one? I checked into Solar panels and found the same senario. Spend $20,000 to $40,000 up front to save $100 per month on the electric bill.

My pinhead greenie neighbor across the road is going to get an addition on to his second mortgage to put a geo in. He maybe pays $1500 max for propane per winter.

My other neighbor 1/2 mile away has one already. His electric bill is between $200 to $350 per month (so the geo adds $150 per month at least) and he still uses a wood furnace in the basement to help when it gets pretty cold since he has a good sized house and the geo just can't get it warm (south of OH).

I don't believe you will save much on AC in the summer in trading an intermittant running AC compressor for more constant running geo pumps and fans. In the winter the increased AC is going to eat most of the propane or NG savings.

Going green is expensive!!! By the time you factor in the repairs and the interest on the borrowed money to begin with You will never break even.

 

[ktm250rider]

His electric bill is between $200 to $350 per month
QUOTE]
Love it. Wonder where he thinks the electricity is coming from to run that?