Geothermal vs Woodheat

[irishcountry]

Geothermal

I have looked into geothermal because i heard from realatives in northern ohio that it worked for them and really lowered their heating/cooling bills one has a closed loop and one a well type system. The one with the well system has had problems with points clogging due to the waters mineral content now this is just what i have heard I have never talked to him directly about the system I know they put some of it in themselves and it ran about $12,000 it is a waterfurnace unit. Out of curiosity we got a quote this summer for the same unit and we were told $22,000 to get it now , they put theirs in 6 to 7 yrs. ago. I cannot justify putting one in as I am young and healthy enough to cut, split,stack wood and really look at the exercise as a added benefit so I am looking at a gasification unit (Tarm,orlan eko,garn,greenwood,ect.) that I can put in our garage and run insulated pex with a exchanger to our current boiler and baseboard system of course this won't take care of cooling i'm hoping to put duct work in myself and have a regular contractor hook up central air down the road and I am thinking I will still come out ahead. I'm in southern mid-michigan and I already know that we have high iron in our water so a well type system would probrobly end up being a nightmare!! Just my 2 cents.

 

[bulletbob]

The Idea from the start is to use energy the right way. If you use geo,then you want to eliminate cost by going with wind. www.mag-wind.com ( for example) and solar. The combination of all three gives you every thing you need without destroying enviroment and save large amounts of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Grant It there are large up front cost,but there are grants and rebates that make it possible even on a budget. radiant flooring,waterless heaters, lighting, enviro products are the way of the future. saving $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ feels good when you are not hurting any body or anything.

 

[Al Smith]

Talk to one of your HVAC companies in your area and see if anyone has electronic sniffer for refrigerant. That little gizmo will pickup a fly fart if it smells like refrigerant gas.

I have all that stuff,detector,refridgerant scales,gauges,vacuum pump .Where ever the leak is,it's so tiny it can't be detected.Not a big deal,a couple of pounds of r-22 and back in business.Fact is,I'm going to do so in about 15 minutes myself.

On the subject of the geotheremal they are danged costly unless you get a deal as I did.If for example you use a closed loop,in these parts it takes 700 feet per ton rating.Due to the fact I have 6 ton,that would be 4200 feet if I went that route.

A well works just dandy and so does a pond or lake.

Now the cost thing.I had about 3500 bucks all told in mine.Keep in mind though that I built and installed all the duct work and did 100 percent of the installation plus I already had a spare well for water.The labor might have been free but it took me all summer several years ago to do.Installing duct work in a crawl space is not my idea of a good time.

 

[MS-310]

His electric bill is between $200 to $350 per month
QUOTE]
Love it. Wonder where he thinks the electricity is coming from to run that?

+1

Thats funny! (coal)

 

[David Wayne]

Sorry, don't know how to do quotes. (Mr Obvious) going green never entered my mind. As for saving a few hundred I guess i am bullheaded. Background, I bought this house Nov. 87 was stuck with the then 40 yr old fuel oil boiler/radiant wall registers,liked the heat but age of total system was an issue. "88" installed a high efficient propane furnace so I could remove rebuild chimney for wood furnace that I own from previous home. Winter of 88/89 went through 400 gal. each month for Dec.-Feb. about half that for the more moderate months, and we didn't keep overly warm. 89 built new chimney & put in add on furnace 120,000 btu burned 10 cord & 500 gal propane for the year. Have since changed the setup, hot to hot & cold to cold on add on's aren't efficient. made the add on a stand alone, built a plenum & hooked all the ducts to it eliminating the furnace for 2 years now. down to about 7 cord & 200 gal propane (for the fireplace logs), but we haven't had a bad winter for a few years now. I might build a water furnace to put in shop & go back to water registers, part of the house is on a slab so this is the best way I know to get heat to the exterior wall. I agree I wont spend that much money on a system as long as I can cut, but for 5k more than OWB I think geo would be the best buy. Thank for the replies

 

[woodfarmer]

scooter, what brand is yours?

 

[logbutcher]

Wood

The Idea from the start is to use energy the right way. If you use geo,then you want to eliminate cost by going with wind. www.mag-wind.com ( for example) and solar. The combination of all three gives you every thing you need without destroying enviroment and save large amounts of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Grant It there are large up front cost,but there are grants and rebates that make it possible even on a budget. radiant flooring,waterless heaters, lighting, enviro products are the way of the future. saving $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ feels good when you are not hurting any body or anything.

Au contraire Bob. There is a high cost to every "alternative" product: solar/photovoltaic have a very high energy utilization of exotic compounds e.g. silicon. Wind turbines demand heavy use of materials e.g. carbon plus lead batteries for storage when no wind. Geothermal systems are complex and demand high electrical use ( read: coal ) , manufacturing costs, inefficiency in cold climates, and zero efficiency when the power dies in storms or brownouts. For all of these systems the payback is long or non-existent. For those of us with high kw fees, .14+ cents/kw hr here in Maine, geo is not a viable option.

There is now more forest in North America than before WWII. Wood for energy is renewable, self sustainable, and if done right, clean burning compared to most fossil fuels. The product of wood burning is C02 neutral. If and when the technology is developed, wood mass/ biomass will be a larger scale fuel for general generation of power without removing anything from the food chain.

No one is "destroying" :help: , or "hurting"; woodlands need management like a garden. Read up on your Forestry Science. The benefits of using trees and byproducts for a heating fuel should be obvious even compared to the so-called "alternative energy" sources mentioned. Yes, it is a limited market for many reasons. Ask around, for those who use wood for heat: do they enjoy the year-round process? How much are they saving in fossil fuel costs and using a carbon neutral fuel ?

Besides Bob, you do need the exercise. :hmm3grin2orange:

 

[joecool85]

Au contraire Bob. There is a high cost to every "alternative" product: solar/photovoltaic have a very high energy utilization of exotic compounds e.g. silicon. Wind turbines demand heavy use of materials e.g. carbon plus lead batteries for storage when no wind. Geothermal systems are complex and demand high electrical use ( read: coal ) , manufacturing costs, inefficiency in cold climates, and zero efficiency when the power dies in storms or brownouts. For all of these systems the payback is long or non-existent. For those of us with high kw fees, .14+ cents/kw hr here in Maine, geo is not a viable option.

There is now more forest in North America than before WWII. Wood for energy is renewable, self sustainable, and if done right, clean burning compared to most fossil fuels. The product of wood burning is C02 neutral. If and when the technology is developed, wood mass/ biomass will be a larger scale fuel for general generation of power without removing anything from the food chain.

No one is "destroying" :help: , or "hurting"; woodlands need management like a garden. Read up on your Forestry Science. The benefits of using trees and byproducts for a heating fuel should be obvious even compared to the so-called "alternative energy" sources mentioned. Yes, it is a limited market for many reasons. Ask around, for those who use wood for heat: do they enjoy the year-round process? How much are they saving in fossil fuel costs and using a carbon neutral fuel ?

Besides Bob, you do need the exercise. :hmm3grin2orange:

$0.18/kwh here in Old Town. I can't wait to move back to the western side of the state, I'm hoping in the New Sharon/Farmington area. Soon after we get a house we will be installing an OWB. 90% of Maine is covered in trees and as logbutcher says, cutting in the woods is good for the forest if done properly. So not only are you helping the environment by "weeding" out the forest, but you are carbon neutral (if you burn 10 cords and grow 10 cords worth of trees the next year, you are neutral), you save money and you get good excercise. Plus it's fun running a saw (and gives me another excuse to use my John Deere 40).

 

[bulletbob]

The goverment gives Incentives to purchase as well as the company them selfs. wood Is great.(bulletBob's Tree Care)So we need to do things with a enviromental thought of mine. A few years ago the gas company gave away furnaces (great right) now the gas is almost as much as oil. We need to stop using fuels alltogether. Also in ct they are going to regulate wood burn soon,Im sure the UI had something to do with that. CT is to controlling Any way you need to check this out www.plascoenergygroup.com let me know what you think.

 

[logbutcher]

Gob'ment Is Us

The goverment gives Incentives to purchase as well as the company them selfs. wood Is great.(bulletBob's Tree Care)So we need to do things with a enviromental thought of mine. A few years ago the gas company gave away furnaces (great right) now the gas is almost as much as oil. We need to stop using fuels alltogether. Also in ct they are going to regulate wood burn soon,Im sure the UI had something to do with that. CT is to controlling Any way you need to check this out www.plascoenergygroup.com let me know what you think.

High tech alternatives like Plasco recycling to produce power are part of the solution Bob. Nice site. Remember, those "government incentives" are your $$$$$$ spent not very efficiently.

There is an allure to exotic solutions that demand expensive R&D particularly from bureaucrats of all sides looking for votes :deadhorse: .
Wood as a heating fuel will alsways satisfy only a small % of us (only a few % country-wide): it is labor intensive though cost effective, always renewable in the quantities used, and renewable. Those CT "rules" for some reason, go after the easiest targets: wood burners. It is not for the majority in suburbs or cities for sure.

So you know: we've used tankless/on demand water heaters for 8 years, built our place ourselves with serious insulation and sealing, and ALL our lightbulbs are CFL. Heat is 95% wood 24/7. No central heating, just a backup gas space heater for 1/2 the house with the plumbing, for trips away. Our Rinnai tankless gives the two of us "unlimited" hot water at the same time with a washing machine, dishwasher, and shower. With all the whines :help: from aches and pains from training and working the woodlots the showers tend to be too looooong. Feels so good. :hmm3grin2orange:

 

[SCOOTER]

Mine is a Hydro-Heat.. and i've never had a service call on it since installing it in April of 2001. Only change the filters 3 times a year.

 

[Al Smith]

Mine is a Hydro-Heat.. and i've never had a service call on it since installing it in April of 2001. Only change the filters 3 times a year.

If I'm not mistaken,Hydra Heat and Hydra Delta are one in the same,home ported in Monroeville PA. Water Furnace was a break off group from the original Hydra Delta Company.Just trivia.

 

[bulletbob]

Tankless: If we could get everyone on the list,that could save big bucks and less energy.consumers could get incentives by just saving $$$$$$$$.If they only knew or cared. :bang:

 

[Driftwood]

We have a FHP Geothermal system and supplement the heating with a little Quadrafire 2100 stove. The Geothermal is a closed loop system that was installed when our house was built. We have only lived in our house since April so I don’t have a long history with the geothermal system. However, it did cost about $10K more than a normal heat pump. Our house is all electric (oven, hot water, dryer, geothermal) and only 1 electric bill (July) has been over $100. We later found out that the hot water reclamation was turned off and one of our hot water heaters had a bad element so the other one was pulling double duty. After turning the hot water reclamation and getting the element fixed, our highest bill was $80 and the lowest was $45. That is for a 2000 sq ft house. In our old house (1200 sq ft) we heated with propane and the heating bills would often exceed $300 for just propane plus around $100 for electricity. So with the geothermal and the stove in the basement, we are paying over $300 less per month to heat almost twice the area. Our electric bills are also lower in the summer than they were with the AC on our old house and it had propane for the dryer, oven, heater and hot water.

 

[David Wayne]

We have a FHP Geothermal system and supplement the heating with a little Quadrafire 2100 stove. The Geothermal is a closed loop system that was installed when our house was built. We have only lived in our house since April so I don’t have a long history with the geothermal system. However, it did cost about $10K more than a normal heat pump. Our house is all electric (oven, hot water, dryer, geothermal) and only 1 electric bill (July) has been over $100. We later found out that the hot water reclamation was turned off and one of our hot water heaters had a bad element so the other one was pulling double duty. After turning the hot water reclamation and getting the element fixed, our highest bill was $80 and the lowest was $45. That is for a 2000 sq ft house. In our old house (1200 sq ft) we heated with propane and the heating bills would often exceed $300 for just propane plus around $100 for electricity. So with the geothermal and the stove in the basement, we are paying over $300 less per month to heat almost twice the area. Our electric bills are also lower in the summer than they were with the AC on our old house and it had propane for the dryer, oven, heater and hot water.

You refer to old house & new house, wondering how they compare,ie insulation, window size & arrangement (facing south). What is the cost of electric at each place, here it is 8 cents kwh. currently heating old drafty farmhouse 1800 sqft. If I get the chance to build new probably will go geo or regular HP with wood backup. Sounds like you are well pleased with yours.

BTW
Did the ice storm miss ya, looked like a mess on the news here.

 

[Driftwood]

I know the old house/new house comparison is not the most fair. The old house was actually was double-wide mobile homes so it was not anywhere near the most energy efficient house. The new house has a basement and 1 1/2 stories. It has better insulation (6 in walls) and better windows and doors, and is sealed up better. The two houses are only 900 ft apart so the climate and energy expenses (I think around 7 cents per kwh) are the same. Both face east-west.

As for the ice storm…no it did not miss us. It hit us head on. We were without power for almost a week (Monday – Saturday). Around 15,000 houses in our town alone were without any power. Our little woodstove literally saved our lives. With temps in the single digits at night and below freezing during the days, we were able to keep our basement at 70-80 and our first floor at 65-75.

We do love our geothermal but it is no use without any power (and no generator).

 

[PaulLovesJamie]

I had a GT system installed in my new 3800 sq ft house 4 years ago.
Yes it cost me more than an oil burner would have - approx 10K more total.
My average annual electric bill (13c/kwh) is $150. Thats for heating, cooling, cooking, fridge + 2 chest freezers, electric water heater, well pump, pool filter, lights, computers, tv ... in other words, everything.

Yes, GT systems 10 years or more ago were not very efficient. Today they are.

Before choosing a heating/cooling system for my new house, I found heating/cooling contractors who did an energy audit on my house design, and determine how many BTU's were needed for my climate. Then I called the electric co, oil co, natural gas co to find out how many BTU's I get from 1 kwh/gallon/ft. (you can find that via google now too.) Multiply by the cost per kwh/gallon/ft, and you can EASILY compare the total annual cost for each fuel source. Do the same for the GT unit, and you'll see that if the GT companies efficiency claims are accurate, it is by FAR the cheapest to run. For me, the difference was enough cheaper that my payback was approx 7 years - I'm saving approx 1300-1400 $ per year in total energy costs. Thats a far cry from "a measly couple hundred bucks." And that was before oil and gas prices skyrocketed.

Disagree all you want, but it works for me.
I simply suggest you do some 6th grade math instead of listening to your neighbor. (or me for that matter.)

Clarification: I do occasionally burn wood. No, I dont need to, the system keeps my house toasty warm when it's below 0 here. Based on how little wood I burn, I estimate that I'm saving only 10% off my heating bills. I could be wrong there, but I dont think so. I'm burning more this winter (planning to anyway - the boys are big enough to split oak) so I'll have a more accurate estimate at the end of this winter.

 

[DanMan1]

I had a GT system installed in my new 3800 sq ft house 4 years ago.
Yes it cost me more than an oil burner would have - approx 10K more total.
My average annual electric bill (13c/kwh) is $150. Thats for heating, cooling, cooking, fridge + 2 chest freezers, electric water heater, well pump, pool filter, lights, computers, tv ... in other words, everything.

Yes, GT systems 10 years or more ago were not very efficient. Today they are.

Before choosing a heating/cooling system for my new house, I found heating/cooling contractors who did an energy audit on my house design, and determine how many BTU's were needed for my climate. Then I called the electric co, oil co, natural gas co to find out how many BTU's I get from 1 kwh/gallon/ft. (you can find that via google now too.) Multiply by the cost per kwh/gallon/ft, and you can EASILY compare the total annual cost for each fuel source. Do the same for the GT unit, and you'll see that if the GT companies efficiency claims are accurate, it is by FAR the cheapest to run. For me, the difference was enough cheaper that my payback was approx 7 years - I'm saving approx 1300-1400 $ per year in total energy costs. Thats a far cry from "a measly couple hundred bucks." And that was before oil and gas prices skyrocketed.

Disagree all you want, but it works for me.
I simply suggest you do some 6th grade math instead of listening to your neighbor. (or me for that matter.)

Clarification: I do occasionally burn wood. No, I dont need to, the system keeps my house toasty warm when it's below 0 here. Based on how little wood I burn, I estimate that I'm saving only 10% off my heating bills. I could be wrong there, but I dont think so. I'm burning more this winter (planning to anyway - the boys are big enough to split oak) so I'll have a more accurate estimate at the end of this winter.

I think you meant to say "average monthly bill" not annual, right?

 

[PaulLovesJamie]

I think you meant to say "average monthly bill" not annual, right?

Yes I meant monthly. Sorry bout that.

 

[Kenora]

PLJ, can you share with the rest of us the make/model of your system please...I for one am building an 1100 sq/ft home with a full walkout basement. Its on a 4/12 slope about 70 ft from a lake I want to use in a closed loop system. I am very pleased to hear of your success and would like to learn more about the equipment you used. Thanks.