Wood splitter questions

[joecool85]

I'm planning on building a wood splitter sometime in the next couple years so I've been doing some research. I think I'm going to build it like the HG-21: http://www.westsharpening.com/bachtold/index.html

12tons, 3.5hp, 7gpm 2 stage pump (Haldex 1300484), 3.5 x 18" cylinder
I want to build it on 3x3" 1/4" wall square tube

I know a lot of you guys will say this is really small, but I have three reasons for this:
- I already have a great condition 3.5hp Tecumseh sitting around
- I'll only be splitting 10-12 cords of pine/fir/maple (mostly 10-14" DBH) a year
- I want it to be light-ish in weigh so it's not to hard to move around

Do you guys think that the splitter I'm thinking up would do what I want it to?

 

[boostnut]

3" square x 1/4" wall instead of the traditional I-Beam design? That doesn't seem very stout, you may want to rethink that (or am I missing something here)?

 

[mga]

i looked at the web site.....i found a few questionable things:

1. Commercial & Industrial LOG SPLITTERS sorry, but they don't look heavy duty enough to be "commercial" or "industrial"...what ever that is.

2. they boast of having a "low profile" for easy towing. the third picture shows the guy bending over too much. an hour of that and your back is gonna be screaming at you.

i stopped looking after that.

if you're going to build one, stand with a log as if you're splitting and use that as a target height for your splitter. you'll be glad you did. even if you're just splitting several small logs, make the splitter comfortable to use.

 

[joecool85]

3" square x 1/4" wall instead of the traditional I-Beam design? That doesn't seem very stout, you may want to rethink that (or am I missing something here)?

From what I gather it should be just as strong, or stronger, than the 2" x 4" x 3/16" beam they used for the HG-21.

And as far as the height is concerned, I agree that it needs to be a little taller. I will be building the unit and then mounting it onto an old lawn tractor wagon frame (body is all rusted out but the axle/wheels etc are all great). When I mount it up I can make it as tall/short as I want it. I'll make sure it's comfortable to use.

I guess my big two questions are these:

- Will 12 tons split the type of wood I want to (10-14" DBH pine, fir, maple)?
- Will 3" x 3" x 1/4" square tube steel be strong enough?

 

[rx7145]

I would use a 11gpm pump. Slow splitters are well....slow.

 

[joecool85]

I would use a 11gpm pump. Slow splitters are well....slow.

It shouldn't be that slow, a tick more than 6 seconds to full extension, that's better than a lot of store bought units. Also, the 7 gpm pump is all my 3.5hp engine can handle. Keep in mind this is only a 3.5" bore piston.

Just check out this one: http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200350116_200350116
12 tons, 21-25 second cycle time. My splitter will be 12-13 second cycle time...with a smaller engine no less.

Also, I just re-read what they used for their "beam"...it's 2" x 4" x 3/16" rectangular tube steel. I can get that just as easily as square tube, actually a little cheaper. So I'll just use exactly what they used, 2" x 4" x 3/16" rectangular tube. Actually, just to be safe I'll use 2" x 4" x 1/4" rectangular tube. I can get 4ft for like $70-75 anyway (about $10 more than the 3/16").

So the only question left now is, will 12 tons split what I want to split? I think it will, but I'd like to hear from you guys.

 

[reaperman]

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=55258

For the money, this one seems hard to beat. Many people like them. Maybe its more splitter then you are lookin for.

 

[joecool85]

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=55258

For the money, this one seems hard to beat. Many people like them. Maybe its more splitter then you are lookin for.

It is a good deal, but I'd rather build one myself and know for sure it's built right. Also, mine will cost me ~$650 which is less than that one shipped will be anyway. But like I said, I want to build it to my specs. And I'm big on recycling, what better way to recycle/reuse my unused 3.5hp tecumseh?

 

[kevin j]

My assorted comments:
-I’m sure you’ll get most opinions voting for bigger and stronger. For me, I am biased to speed instead of force, and we split mostly small pieces 16 long, 12 to 20 diameter. And being light and portable means it can be moved around and also stored more easily. Depends on your needs. I have split a lot of 12 inch dbd with 3 inch cylinder. If its tough, carve off the sides. Slower, but works fine.

-That said, although it’s nice to reuse the existing engine (I have a vertical shaft 5.5 engine with only 10 hours on it, but will probably bite the bullet and get a new horizontal shaft for better layout), keep in mind it may compromise the speed of the unit. I’d find a 5 or 6 hp lawnmower engine and go 11 gpm, for sure two stage pump, since you have to buy the pump anyway. 11 might actually be cheaper because they are so common used or surplus. 7 is more unusual, have to be new probably. You will quickly forget the savings you made in dollars, and curse it for years because it is too slow.


I have used a rental that I think was from this Bachtold Brothers. Good machine very light, never bent, although they look light.
-They have a 3/8 x 4 or 6 wide flat on top of the 2X4 or 3X5 box tube for attaching the slider, and also reinforcing the beam a lot. Tube alone I don’t think would be stiff enough for 3.5 cylinder, certainly not for 4 inch cylinder.
-I don’t like the U bolt mounted cylinders. The rigid mount puts side load on the rod bushing and seal
-The wedge is short at 6 inches high. Biggest drawback to the rental I used. Had to cycle wood, then flip over and cycle again, especially in stringy wood like elm. Still split, just not torn apart for all the fibers, so really slow. I would go 8, but that is more bending on the beam.
-They are way low on beam. 30-35 inches is much better for back.


-Brave EZ split is similar to your concept, but it is single stage pump, 5 hp I think. 3 inch cylinder. Has a 3x3 or 4x4 tube also as oil tank. That’s ok for 3 gpm pump, but for only about 1 gallon in the tank, not enough for 7-11 gpm two stage pump. I think the Brave is about 150 lbs and more easily stored. Also has the receiver hitch adaptor for travel and use.
-HF has a copy of the Brave unit. I have not seen, but knowing HF…...
-DR is bringing one out
-MTD has one with vertical shaft engine and belt drive to the pump. I looked at that, but vbelts have high side load on the pump shaft, and getting timing belt pulleys was expensive. Parts at Grainger or Industrial supply were cost prohibitive.

-I am working on a version of the small, lightweight one (as well as another trailer mounted 18 hp one but that is another story).
I have the aforementioned 5.5 hp vertical, but will likely buy a horizontal shaft because the pump can tuck under the cylinder better. Vert stack of engine and pump is pretty high. I have storage space where a short stack works for me. A tall engine/pump stack won’t fit and it interferes more with pickup tailgate if on the receiver hitch. .
I have the 3 x 19 plate mounted cylinder from Surplus center, less than $100 to my door. This will be mounted with some flex motion and have two mounting positions, stretched out for working, collapsed in for storage. Similar to the MTD concept, which has trunnions at both ends of cylinder for work or storage.

http://www.yardmachines.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10451_18503_102002_36249_-1#

I will go moving wedge, 8 inches high, instead of moving plate, fixed wedge. For one person, to do the quartering, I don’t like lifting and moving the wood back and forth as a fixed wedge requires. Moving wedge, the wood stays put. Cycle one, retract, turn wood but not move it, and cycle two.
I will go 4x8 tube to get some tank volume. I don’t like tank in beam or tank in axle, as flexing is a problem breaking loose the mill scale and rust, but due to space and weight it works best for me. The MTD tube over tube is very simple to build, but wipes out the bottom of the beam for attaching any feet or brackets for the receiver hitch mount. I will add 3/8 x 1 bars along the top sides of the box beam for the slider to grab. Way strong even with the taller wedge and plate, but I need the oil volume, Even that is minimal.

-For what you are planning, I’d go 4x4 tube x 3/16 wall, rather than 3x3 x ¼ Weight and cost will be similar, but much higher stiffness and strength. Do you need a top bar, probably not with 3 inch cylinder, but maybe so with 3.5 inch. I can’t do the calcs here where I am, and wouldn’t any way due to liability reasons.


harbor freight: here is a discussion on the refurb units

http://www.**********/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/14891/


-Lastly, don’t even think of doing this to save money. You will spend way more buying materials at retail prices, when the mfr buys in volumes, than you could buy one for. New or used is far cheaper. But do it for the fun, the creativity of something that is not available in the market, the pride of the project. Just go in with eyes open and call it a hobby and a good way to learn some skills : )

kcj

 

[joecool85]

My assorted comments...
kcj

Thanks for all the comments, I appreciate it. I'm not doing it to save money, it just works out well that it will cost about the same as buying one new. It's a project I've always wanted to do and have the tools to do.

If you read down a few posts I said that I was going to go with 4" x 2" x 1/4" not 3" x 3" x 1/4". The brave is a 3.5hp splitter with a single stage 2.7gpm pump and 3" cylinder - slow and wimpy. It says it uses 4" x 4" tube, not sure on the wall thickness - but it looks rectangular, like a 4" x 2". Mine with a 7gpm two stage and 3.5" cylinder will have a faster cycle time than all of the small units I've seen for sale, and faster than many large ones as well.

Would 4" x 4" x 1/4" really be that much stronger than 4" x 2" x 1/4" (for the directional force a splitter puts on it)?

 

[cabinman]

Points

My assorted comments:
-I’m sure you’ll get most opinions voting for bigger and stronger. For me, I am biased to speed instead of force, and we split mostly small pieces 16 long, 12 to 20 diameter. And being light and portable means it can be moved around and also stored more easily. Depends on your needs. I have split a lot of 12 inch dbd with 3 inch cylinder. If its tough, carve off the sides. Slower, but works fine.

-That said, although it’s nice to reuse the existing engine (I have a vertical shaft 5.5 engine with only 10 hours on it, but will probably bite the bullet and get a new horizontal shaft for better layout), keep in mind it may compromise the speed of the unit. I’d find a 5 or 6 hp lawnmower engine and go 11 gpm, for sure two stage pump, since you have to buy the pump anyway. 11 might actually be cheaper because they are so common used or surplus. 7 is more unusual, have to be new probably. You will quickly forget the savings you made in dollars, and curse it for years because it is too slow.


I have used a rental that I think was from this Bachtold Brothers. Good machine very light, never bent, although they look light.
-They have a 3/8 x 4 or 6 wide flat on top of the 2X4 or 3X5 box tube for attaching the slider, and also reinforcing the beam a lot. Tube alone I don’t think would be stiff enough for 3.5 cylinder, certainly not for 4 inch cylinder.
-I don’t like the U bolt mounted cylinders. The rigid mount puts side load on the rod bushing and seal
-The wedge is short at 6 inches high. Biggest drawback to the rental I used. Had to cycle wood, then flip over and cycle again, especially in stringy wood like elm. Still split, just not torn apart for all the fibers, so really slow. I would go 8, but that is more bending on the beam.
-They are way low on beam. 30-35 inches is much better for back.


-Brave EZ split is similar to your concept, but it is single stage pump, 5 hp I think. 3 inch cylinder. Has a 3x3 or 4x4 tube also as oil tank. That’s ok for 3 gpm pump, but for only about 1 gallon in the tank, not enough for 7-11 gpm two stage pump. I think the Brave is about 150 lbs and more easily stored. Also has the receiver hitch adaptor for travel and use.
-HF has a copy of the Brave unit. I have not seen, but knowing HF…...
-DR is bringing one out
-MTD has one with vertical shaft engine and belt drive to the pump. I looked at that, but vbelts have high side load on the pump shaft, and getting timing belt pulleys was expensive. Parts at Grainger or Industrial supply were cost prohibitive.

-I am working on a version of the small, lightweight one (as well as another trailer mounted 18 hp one but that is another story).
I have the aforementioned 5.5 hp vertical, but will likely buy a horizontal shaft because the pump can tuck under the cylinder better. Vert stack of engine and pump is pretty high. I have storage space where a short stack works for me. A tall engine/pump stack won’t fit and it interferes more with pickup tailgate if on the receiver hitch. .
I have the 3 x 19 plate mounted cylinder from Surplus center, less than $100 to my door. This will be mounted with some flex motion and have two mounting positions, stretched out for working, collapsed in for storage. Similar to the MTD concept, which has trunnions at both ends of cylinder for work or storage.

http://www.yardmachines.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10451_18503_102002_36249_-1#

I will go moving wedge, 8 inches high, instead of moving plate, fixed wedge. For one person, to do the quartering, I don’t like lifting and moving the wood back and forth as a fixed wedge requires. Moving wedge, the wood stays put. Cycle one, retract, turn wood but not move it, and cycle two.
I will go 4x8 tube to get some tank volume. I don’t like tank in beam or tank in axle, as flexing is a problem breaking loose the mill scale and rust, but due to space and weight it works best for me. The MTD tube over tube is very simple to build, but wipes out the bottom of the beam for attaching any feet or brackets for the receiver hitch mount. I will add 3/8 x 1 bars along the top sides of the box beam for the slider to grab. Way strong even with the taller wedge and plate, but I need the oil volume, Even that is minimal.

-For what you are planning, I’d go 4x4 tube x 3/16 wall, rather than 3x3 x ¼ Weight and cost will be similar, but much higher stiffness and strength. Do you need a top bar, probably not with 3 inch cylinder, but maybe so with 3.5 inch. I can’t do the calcs here where I am, and wouldn’t any way due to liability reasons.


harbor freight: here is a discussion on the refurb units

http://www.**********/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/14891/


-Lastly, don’t even think of doing this to save money. You will spend way more buying materials at retail prices, when the mfr buys in volumes, than you could buy one for. New or used is far cheaper. But do it for the fun, the creativity of something that is not available in the market, the pride of the project. Just go in with eyes open and call it a hobby and a good way to learn some skills : )

kcj

Kevin,..Lots of good answers, straight forward, That splitter for 599,00 is unbelivebale, Id like to stall it a few times,..T,C, E,J,

 

[cabinman]

4x4

Thanks for all the comments, I appreciate it. I'm not doing it to save money, it just works out well that it will cost about the same as buying one new. It's a project I've always wanted to do and have the tools to do.

If you read down a few posts I said that I was going to go with 4" x 2" x 1/4" not 3" x 3" x 1/4". The brave is a 3.5hp splitter with a single stage 2.7gpm pump and 3" cylinder - slow and wimpy. It says it uses 4" x 4" tube, not sure on the wall thickness - but it looks rectangular, like a 4" x 2". Mine with a 7gpm two stage and 3.5" cylinder will have a faster cycle time than all of the small units I've seen for sale, and faster than many large ones as well.

Would 4" x 4" x 1/4" really be that much stronger than 4" x 2" x 1/4" (for the directional force a splitter puts on it)?

I think you wood be happier with a 4x4 beam1/4 wall, If you get any notty crotchey stuff, A 2x4 beam will probably look like a pretzel in short order, Ive allways be inclined to beef it alittle and save some money,....T,C, E,J,

 

[58hydraglide]

Thanks for all the comments, I appreciate it. I'm not doing it to save money, it just works out well that it will cost about the same as buying one new. It's a project I've always wanted to do and have the tools to do.

If you read down a few posts I said that I was going to go with 4" x 2" x 1/4" not 3" x 3" x 1/4". The brave is a 3.5hp splitter with a single stage 2.7gpm pump and 3" cylinder - slow and wimpy. It says it uses 4" x 4" tube, not sure on the wall thickness - but it looks rectangular, like a 4" x 2". Mine with a 7gpm two stage and 3.5" cylinder will have a faster cycle time than all of the small units I've seen for sale, and faster than many large ones as well.

Would 4" x 4" x 1/4" really be that much stronger than 4" x 2" x 1/4" (for the directional force a splitter puts on it)?

Joecool85,
I,ve got a 20year old splitter that mw grandpa and I built. It originally had a VERY OLD 5hp briggs and a single stage pump. once that wore out and my grandpa passed on I replaced it with a 5hp Honda and 11gpm 2 stage pump. (he'd be rolling over in his grave! he was a pacific front WWII vet.) The beam on this is 8"x7.5"x 3/8 with 4"cylinder. with this size hp gpm setup I have split some gnarly maple that has twisted that beam to the point that I could see the sweat dripping off of it. the cycle time is not the fastest but not overly slow. besides that I do get a lot of large rounds where I need the extra power. Although I have had some smaller rounds that will test the tensile strength of the beam as well. With This same set up I am considering going to a 16 gpm pump and larger hp simply for quicker splitting times. Although your wood may be smaller you may still get into some tough wood that might be a little tough to get through. I can post some pics if you'd like but i'm still trying to figure out how to resize them to post on AS. As far as the tecumseh is concerned I believe you said that it was a new engine. I have had a few tecumsehs in my lifetime and I never had one that startes easily,Particularly in the dead of winter. In fact We built another logsplitter after the first one and grandpa bought a brand new Tecumseh 8 hp from (back then ) northern hydraulics. It started ok for the first few months and then had nothing but trouble with it afterward.(There is nothing more frustrating then wanting to split wood and wearing yourself out trying to get the splitter started!!) we pulled that tecumseh and replaced it with a used 8hp kohler and it ran fine. I am not knocking Tecumsehs, but this has been my experience. every tecumseh I've had i have tried to repair without much success. (I have an associates degree in automotive technology from Ferris State, so i'm not a COMPLETE idiot when it comes to internal combustion engines!) That being said, You may think that this size splitter will suit your needs now but once you build it, and get the bug, you may very well be looking and making it faster and more powerful ARGH, ARGH, ARGHHH! Sorry for the long winded post, Just my .02 cents. ( Don't even get me started on the saws to get those rounds to the splitter!)
Mike

 

[joecool85]

I think you wood be happier with a 4x4 beam1/4 wall, If you get any notty crotchey stuff, A 2x4 beam will probably look like a pretzel in short order, Ive allways be inclined to beef it alittle and save some money,....T,C, E,J,

Well, it's only another $20ish to go 4x4 over 4x2, so if it matters I'll do it. No point in being cheap.

 

[58hydraglide]

BTW, We picked up both beams at the local scrap per pound !/2 cord of wood will polish the rust right off of it.

 

[kevin j]

if weight isn't an issue, I'd go the 4x4. roughly 2x the strength in bending from the force on the wedge being above the beam, but also much stronger in torsion, the twisting action tending to wind the tube along its long axis. Actually that 4x4 is probably stiffer in torsion than the open 6 or 8 inch WF beam most people use because the Wf beams are not a closed tube shape. and they work fine

and, you will probably finish splitter number one with a list of what do different on number two... just like street rods.


hey CM I must be getting better, that mean I get two beers? : )

kcj

 

[joecool85]

Joecool85,
I,ve got a 20year old splitter that mw grandpa and I built. It originally had a VERY OLD 5hp briggs and a single stage pump. once that wore out and my grandpa passed on I replaced it with a 5hp Honda and 11gpm 2 stage pump. (he'd be rolling over in his grave! he was a pacific front WWII vet.) The beam on this is 8"x7.5"x 3/8 with 4"cylinder. with this size hp gpm setup I have split some gnarly maple that has twisted that beam to the point that I could see the sweat dripping off of it. the cycle time is not the fastest but not overly slow. besides that I do get a lot of large rounds where I need the extra power. Although I have had some smaller rounds that will test the tensile strength of the beam as well. With This same set up I am considering going to a 16 gpm pump and larger hp simply for quicker splitting times. Although your wood may be smaller you may still get into some tough wood that might be a little tough to get through. I can post some pics if you'd like but i'm still trying to figure out how to resize them to post on AS. As far as the tecumseh is concerned I believe you said that it was a new engine. I have had a few tecumsehs in my lifetime and I never had one that startes easily,Particularly in the dead of winter. In fact We built another logsplitter after the first one and grandpa bought a brand new Tecumseh 8 hp from (back then ) northern hydraulics. It started ok for the first few months and then had nothing but trouble with it afterward.(There is nothing more frustrating then wanting to split wood and wearing yourself out trying to get the splitter started!!) we pulled that tecumseh and replaced it with a used 8hp kohler and it ran fine. I am not knocking Tecumsehs, but this has been my experience. every tecumseh I've had i have tried to repair without much success. (I have an associates degree in automotive technology from Ferris State, so i'm not a COMPLETE idiot when it comes to internal combustion engines!) That being said, You may think that this size splitter will suit your needs now but once you build it, and get the bug, you may very well be looking and making it faster and more powerful ARGH, ARGH, ARGHHH! Sorry for the long winded post, Just my .02 cents. ( Don't even get me started on the saws to get those rounds to the splitter!)
Mike

I appreciate your input. Is it an I-beam, H-beam or square/rectangle tube that your splitter is on? This tecumseh is 12 years old and starts like new, it has about 7 years of pretty heavy lawn mowing usage on it, but it runs sweet and sips fuel. I've never had any issues with tecumsehs and I've had two different snowblowers running 5.5hp tecumsehs - they both were first pull starters all the way down to 10 degrees F, lower than that and it takes two pulls. I ran one when it was -10 F.

The biggest issue I've had with tecumsehs is there is a tiny hole (I'm talking literally pin hole size) in the brass nut on the bowl that gets clogged sometimes when you have old fuel in there, if this happens it will not start no matter what! Take the brass nut off the bowl, clean out the hole and it'll run like new.

 

[joecool85]

if weight isn't an issue, I'd go the 4x4. roughly 2x the strength in bending from the force on the wedge being above the beam, but also much stronger in torsion, the twisting action tending to wind the tube along its long axis. Actually that 4x4 is probably stiffer in torsion than the open 6 or 8 inch WF beam most people use because the Wf beams are not a closed tube shape. and they work fine

and, you will probably finish splitter number one with a list of what do different on number two... just like street rods.


hey CM I must be getting better, that mean I get two beers? : )

kcj

Looks like it'll be 4x4 then probably. Has anyone ever used a cut up frame from a pickup truck or something? I'm a car nut and know a ton of mechanics with junk cars/trucks laying around. I bet I could get a piece for cheap/free.

 

[58hydraglide]

JOecool, It is an I-beam , (8"tall, 7.5" wide.) I'm glad tecumseh runs good for you. I truly think thet tecumsehs' just don't like me! As far as the pinhole in the brass nut, I never noticed it before (I never said I wasn't an idiot, just not a COMPLETE idiot. well except for the tecumsehs I've given away!) Anyways once i installed the honda and 2 stage pump I thought it was the berries, but now I want to upgrade. I've just been to busy playin' with saws. IMO I would build it a little bigger than you think you need just in case you might want to upgrade. at least then you wont have to start all over again. (as long as time and $$ permit)

 

[58hydraglide]

if weight isn't an issue, I'd go the 4x4. roughly 2x the strength in bending from the force on the wedge being above the beam, but also much stronger in torsion, the twisting action tending to wind the tube along its long axis. Actually that 4x4 is probably stiffer in torsion than the open 6 or 8 inch WF beam most people use because the Wf beams are not a closed tube shape. and they work fine

and, you will probably finish splitter number one with a list of what do different on number two... just like street rods.


hey CM I must be getting better, that mean I get two beers? : )

kcj

True true Kevinj, but what about mounting the ram to the tube? On the I beam it is simple to build a very solid guide for the ram that will also resist the potential twisting force some logs produce. I just don't see how you can install a durable ram guide on a square/rectanguler tube splitter, Especially if you want to install a hydraulic log lift. Not trying to be a smart@$$, I 'm just not familiar with them.