Confession and a question

For the past twenty years or so (30+ if you count as a kid), I have been climbing trees and love doing it. I am as comfortable as a monkey up in a tree. I have no fear of heights and have no fear of falling and never have. Up until about three years ago, I never used any ropes for tie ins or harnesses up in trees, always untethered and free. I've never had a problem and for years carried saws, cut branches and took down whole trees and have complete control whenever I am in a tree. My clients have always felt comfortable once they see me in the tree and observe my abilities. Three years ago, I bought my harnesses and ropes and all the gear associated with it. I did that because I am getting older and I know my number could come up considering it hasn't yet. Also, it gives me an extended ability to go where I've never gone before and can do things easier in a tree. Thats my confession.

The question I have is does the fact that I never used harnesses make me dangerous or highly skilled? I never did anything I didn't think I couldn't do and most of my jobs were pretty hairy. I've never fallen and I have never had a liability incedent. Don't get me wrong. The trees I've taken down aren't small and insignificant. I feel much more comfortable in the trees now but still wonder if that just made me crazy, not wearing gear. Its the same old question of bravery versus stupidity. Is the firefighter that goes into the flaming building to save the kid brave or stupid? Was I dangerous to be up in the tree without gear or was I very skilled? Let me know, what do you think?

This is not going to be pretty. This seems like a setup to me, but I will take your word for it. No harness or anything? Not even tied in? I am not sure I am hearing you right. I climbed for years on just a saddle and a climbing line, one tie in point and that was it. Not perfectly up to ANSI standards sometimes, but always got the job done. I guess I would need some more specifics like a picture or something to give a truthful statement. No offense, but what you describe sounds like James the Narcoleptic Tree Cutter down in the video section of this forum. Is it?

capetrees said:

For the past twenty years or so (30+ if you count as a kid), I have been climbing trees and love doing it. I am as comfortable as a monkey up in a tree. I have no fear of heights and have no fear of falling and never have. Up until about three years ago, I never used any ropes for tie ins or harnesses up in trees, always untethered and free. I've never had a problem and for years carried saws, cut branches and took down whole trees and have complete control whenever I am in a tree. My clients have always felt comfortable once they see me in the tree and observe my abilities. Three years ago, I bought my harnesses and ropes and all the gear associated with it. I did that because I am getting older and I know my number could come up considering it hasn't yet. Also, it gives me an extended ability to go where I've never gone before and can do things easier in a tree. Thats my confession.

The question I have is does the fact that I never used harnesses make me dangerous or highly skilled? I never did anything I didn't think I couldn't do and most of my jobs were pretty hairy. I've never fallen and I have never had a liability incedent. Don't get me wrong. The trees I've taken down aren't small and insignificant. I feel much more comfortable in the trees now but still wonder if that just made me crazy, not wearing gear. Its the same old question of bravery versus stupidity. Is the firefighter that goes into the flaming building to save the kid brave or stupid? Was I dangerous to be up in the tree without gear or was I very skilled? Let me know, what do you think?

Click to expand...

I don't know if I want to touch that one or not. Could be a trick to get the loggers after me again. Of course if it's not a trick anybody that has been in this business any length of time knows you are as full of sh*t as a christmas goose. Either that or your cheese has slid off your cracker.

Taking you at your word, I think you'll find that by choosing your tie in point carefully and working the tree very methodically, your bodyline and saddle will allow you to confidently go places in the tree that were impossible for you to ever go before, it's just a matter of keeping the vast bulk of your weight supported by your bodyline at the carefully chosen tie in point. You will find that you can go right out to the very end of branches that would have snapped right off without a bodyline tie in. You will find that you are limited only by the horizontal pressures that want to return you to the center of gravity directly below your tie in point. You can rest easy knowing that even if the branch you are on breaks, it not you will hit the ground provided your tie in point heigth exceeds the horizontal length of the branch you're out on. Of course if you're out on the branch a good distance and it breaks, even though you won't hit the ground, I assure you you'll be moving back towards the center of gravity at a high rate of speed, usually it's the main stem of the tree below your TIP, if you fail to spin around to take the impact feet first, the chances of breaking your neck, back,etc and killing yourself are sometimes just as real as hitting the ground itself.

I suggest you get some real professional training, atleast read some professional climbing books. I understand there are many good training videos available now also.

Welcome to the world of professional climbing, I highly encourage you to take it very seriously before you kill yourself. If all you say is true, then you have been very very lucky my friend, I think you probably realize that now, if you don't, I'm sure you will soon.

Work safe!

jomoco

This is all legit. Of course I don't have pictures, its all in the past. Its not a sucker question, it just that with all the PPE comments and safety issues brought up in here, I was just wondering what someone that has climbed "safe" with all the gear all the time thinks in terms of dangerous or skilled. And for nailsbeats, it exactly like James the narcoleptic tree cutter except he drops trees on houses. I've never had a problem.

BTW, if you don't want to be attacked with a comment in here that some may find as offensive or detrimental to the biz, PM me. Just looking for insight.

I would say you are lucky. It seems you have recognized the errors of your old ways and would be foolish to revert to your old unsafe practices. There are many a firewooder that I run into with their slanting back-cuts and mismatched face cuts who swear that they have been doing this bass-ackwards stuff for 20 or 30 years and never had a problem. Some people are incredibly lucky doing stupid things for a very long time and escape the consequences.

Dangerous or highly skilled? I would say for sure dangerous, but everything has a level or danger to it, just that you were operating at the highest level.
You must have been skilled, "highly skilled" I am not sure. To me it depends on the actual size and number of trees you have done this way, and the number and position of potential targets you were working over. I find it amazing what a person that is "uneducated" can do out of necessity, then when you get educated you look back and count your blessings. I am not gonna harp on you, glad you got the gear now and are working more efficiently and safely.

I forgot Cape I have one question, How did you ascend the trees, shimmy up, use spikes?

I'd say you were being dangerous obviously. If you were to slip you would fall. Yeah you are probably very skilled to climb and cut without a lanyard at least. I have met a couple guys who climb with only spikes and a lanyard. You couldn't give em a rope. Would you say you are skilled if you run across a busy freeway several times without getting hit? You can obviously see the advantages of being tied in. Not only fall prevention but the ability to use both hands. You will probably be even more confident in a tree now.

I on the other hand am not very comfortable in a tree. Always double tied in and careful. I can hang from ropes while rock climbing no problem. Just hard to trust trees. I watched a guy fall and sit in a coma for a year once so I guess I've been burned.

It's been 50 yrs. for me & I've seen many improvements. The days of the lanyard & spikes , free climbing & manilla rope. Model T's vs. todays auto's, their is no comparison. I'm still climbing & loving every minute of a fair challenge ! I openly admit I will walk away from the OLD DEAD monster, due to common sense. I'm still enthusiastic about removals ,trims & tree care in general. Arborists Site is a great educational tool & I'm never too old when it comes to learning. I personally use every modern tool availabe & enjoy the safety aspects afforded by their use. Equipment will always improve & we should all strive to be as safe as possible, in our choosen profession.

I would echo the sentiments in Jocomo's reply (+1 J') and here are a few of my own:

Dangerous? Yes, to yourself and your extended family for the POTENTIAL for harm and injury every time you climbed.

Highly skilled? two parts here...as a tree climber I'd venture yes...as a tree worker, unless I saw the results of your work, pruning, reductions, safe and effective takedowns, judgement reserved.

Forward thinker, sensible human? Definitely yes...you have correctly analysed the potential for harm to yourself and the odds of continuing unscathed with your current practice. Good for you, with your inate comfort in the trees, I reckon after a transition time with your new gear, you'll be flying again and probably doing better work.

Thanks for posting

This guy is truly amazing. No ropes or nothing for all those years? Truly amazing.

Nails,
I usually had limbs that were close enough to shimmy a short way and then use the branches to ascend. If not, I'd throw a rope up to a branch and pull my way up or in the end shimmy up anything else.

I actually find that with gear, I actually have a bit of fear, not much, in that I am putting my safety in the "hands" of a harness and a few knots that could break or come undone at any given moment, having checked them or not. While working without harness and tie ins, I knew 100% that I was able to do the task because physically I knew my limitations. I guess I have trouible trusting things more than my own instincts.

If you had to put a number on how many trees you have climbed (with a saw) this way, what would your best guesstimate be? How many?

I'm trying to picture how it would be humanly possible to block down a spar without equipment

No offense, but I'm calling BS on this thread. Back in January, the OP is posting this:

"And as a backup, that's why I use a second wire flip line. One for me, one is just not enough."

and now he's saying that he's NEVER used ropes, saddles or TIP's? And that he doesn't feel comfortable trusting ropes and saddles, but he uses TWO steel core flip lines, because it makes him feel more comfortable?

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?p=878913#post878913

Or this one:

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?p=878932#post878932

where he's saying that you're a hack when you've "tied yourself in so as not to fall with simply a rope around your waist tied to the ladder which is NOT tied to the tree!"

Like I said, I don't want to offend anyone and I don't want to step on any toes, but something's not right about this thread. Maybe I missed the joke somewhere?

Mark

Skilled? I doubt if you can say you are skilled if you are not working as efficiently and safe as possible. I can't imagine I would have you climb a tree without a rope and harness as you would be slow as hell moving about the tree.

I would also have to questions your skill level and the amount and size of trees you have taken down. What about rigging? If so, are you telling us you have cut the top out of a pine while it was on a bull rope and you rode the ride without a lanyard when the load was caught by the friction device?

I am not saying I am the safest guy out there, especially when it comes to one handing the saw....but I am sure you never use two hands on a saw without a rope?

How do you get out on the ends of limbs to prune? Do you shimmy your way out on your belly and shimmy back?

At the end of the day, why did it take you so long to educate yourself on the industry? Are you skilled but uneducated? Is that possible?

Do what you got to do

I take your name, capetrees, as being that you are from the cape. I have been there many a time and never seen a tree over 60 ft. It sure make it a lot easier to climb when its all pitch pines, and scrub oaks with lots of branches. Try climbing a white oak or a black walnut that is mature. There is no possible way you could prune a tree like that effectively and in a timely fashion. I am not trying to crimp your style,I do things that are ANSI approved as well, but certainly not climbing without a saddle. Maybe in your case its hard to teach an old dog new tricks...If you have climbed without for such a time...it may be hard to trust all your new gear.
I will also say this..Most guys stareted on a tautline with no slack tender, and footlocked with no prussic. Talk to someone who switched to an eye and eye with a slack tender, or footlocking where you actually can rest on your knot(if you wanted to). In my mind makes life much easier.

What you describe as your career as a treeworker I would describe as a career as a tree hack, not skillful and not a professional. There is a big difference between monkeying around in a tree and performing quality tree work.

I believe free climbing should be taught to all climbers so that they experience their limitations in a tree. I used to teach all my climbers free climbing on a belay, requiring them to reach designated areas, perform certain tasks within the tree, then have them repeat the same tasks tied in properly. There is no comparison.

You cannot perform what is necessary to be done in tree work without the proper tools and techniques. You will wind up "making do" with what you are physically capable of as opposed to what the tree needs.

D Mc

So, you attached your saw to your beltloop? Or, did you free climb these mighty trees one handed with a saw in the other? ( whilst shimmying, of course ) Perhaps you just took a rope up with you tied to a saw on the ground, pulling it up each time you wanted to cut, that sounds efficient. Just tell me the truth, are you Tarzan?