Multiple wall 4 failures

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Dave, where you have marked up your picture with "A" I think was existing at time of injury.

The other two arrows further up has grown after wounding, we have established clearly that where there is no wound wood (differentiated callus wood) there is no wall4, that was very conclusive even by the biggest proponents of wall4 present at time of wounding proponents.

The wound progressed (as expected) to the centre of the tree (pith) and decayed from inside out where once again we tested that wall4 wont initiate when the decay comes from inside migrating outside as the cells which differentiate to callus are not being affected and not triggering a wall4 response. This is why often we have hollow tube (cylinders) for trees and as the next growth ring comes the last one left behind succumbs to decay. The decay resistant properties are strongest in the sapwood, also as the tree grows and the heartwood is decaying at the same rate as the growth rate (almost ring for ring) the tree is unable to store away anything into that heartwood which likely means the tree is now carrying more phenolic compounds in it's sapwood making it resist decay stronger than before.

The reason why barrier zones tend to favour growth rings should be clear to most people who have half a clue about tree biology.

When I need my lawn mowed I call Jims, when I need my trees done I call a qualified arborist who researched and studied.

Consumers choose your tree man carefully, we are far from being all the same. :clap:
 
I think I will stick with the growth increment I noted as "time of wounding" due to distortion of growth increments by woundwood as the indicator.

Eric, is what you are telling us is that in your opinion the new growth increment IS Wall 4? I think you used to think Wall 4 was callus until I pointed out the cylinder of hollow wood we are all familiar with (in completely hollow trees with strong vitality) existed, indicating that MORE than callus/woundwood was protected.

If this is so I am going to disagree with this opinion also. My assertion is that this protection zone is BETWEEN the prior-to-injury wood and wood after the wound and made up of chemicals that come from stored energy reserves, starch, oil, in living wood cells. These chemicals are phenol based and can be non existent due to loss of storage so repeated Wall 4 failures can occur until the tree dies or breaks off (not the fact that only the current growth increment is Wall 4).

The barrier zone is a tissue that has a great amount of axial paranchyma, few conducting elements, low amounts of lignin, and in some species, suberin in the cells. The cambium forms cells that differentiate to form this Wall 4.
(excerpted from NTB, pg. pg. 420)

Large barrier zones can form (but they can be neg. in closing off storage space). The system is based on communication and response to information.

"Wounding experiments have shown that the symplast regulates the activities of the vascular cambium by sending it messages. When trees were wounded with drill bits and later dissected, it was observed that the cambium need not be touched to respond. A barrier zone of specialized cells was formed by the cambium in response to injured cells elsewhere in the symplast. (!!!!!)

These results are significant because they show that the cambium can receive messages from the symplast. This process has great survival value. If a tree is in trouble because of injury or infection, the cambium responds even if the problem has occurred elsewhere in the tree. This explains how barrier zones can form far in advance of injured tissue and demonstrates that survival in trees depends on the communication of new information".

Excerpted from "The Nature of Tree Care", Conversations with Alex Shigo, Jack Phillips and Alex L. Shigo, (2008) Pg. 4
 
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treevet said:
I think you used to think Wall 4 was callus until I pointed out the cylinder of hollow wood
Click to expand...

If that's the case please reference your "pointing out", there's a long thread unfinished on this very topic I know of elsewhere. ;)

treevet said:
My assertion is that this protection zone is BETWEEN the prior-to-injury wood and wood after the wound and made up of chemicals that come from stored energy reserves, starch, oil, in living wood cells. These chemicals are phenol based and can be non existent due to loss of storage so repeated Wall 4 failures can occur until the tree dies or breaks off (not the fact that only the current growth increment is Wall 4).

The barrier zone is a tissue that has a great amount of axial paranchyma, few conducting elements, low amounts of lignin, and in some species, suberin in the cells. The cambium forms cells that differentiate to form this Wall 4.
(excerpted from NTB, pg. pg. 420)
Click to expand...

So, which is it, that differentiated cambium cells form wall4 or wall4 is some keno reaction barrier zone independent of callus/cambium? Seems you have hedged your bets on both animals.

Barrier zones, reactions zones and wall4 ... not all the same animal and the variety plus inconsistencies I see and read validate this, just like the one written above.

You agreed with these posts, but you also wrote somewhere that wall4 has nothing to do with callus .... getting mixed messages here Dave.

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?p=1556613#post1556613

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?p=1557195#post1557195
 
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Ekka said:
If that's the case please reference your "pointing out", there's a long thread unfinished on this very topic I know of elsewhere. ;)
Click to expand...

I "pointed this out" on your forum (your elsewhere reference) I believe but it may not have been in the thread you reference and I am not about to search 2,500 posts. I may also have pointed it out to you in a PM in response to your initial PM asking me for information regarding Wall4.

I am still trying to get a grasp on this ....as are many people including the originator of this thread, likely the people reading this thread and also likely you. Much of it comes down to a matter of semantics.

I know Dr. Shigo had little or no reference to woundwood as opposed to callus and their difference properties in his first book A New Tree Biology and this changed with time and research and understanding.
.
Therefore my shifting of opinion based on readings and discussion doesn't embarrass me in the least. It should not embarrass you either. I know that people have been banned from your forum just from disagreeing with you in regards to your opinions on Wall 4 and other semi-conjectural issues.

I will try to address more of your post later as I am buried in work and I am already late. But I assure you that all of what you read in my posts is essentially directly from texts by Shigo, Schwarze, Gilman, Harris, Pirone, et. al. as I am not a scientist. But I am trying to ascertain the truth.
 
Dave, where you have marked up your picture with "A" I think was existing at time of injury.
Click to expand...

The original wound you see there was at least 10 years old possibly as much as 20 years old.
Click to expand...

The property owners confirmed that wound existed when they purchased the house 10 years ago. It is highly unlikely then that point A existed at that time. It seems far more likely that point A marks the edge of the column of rot the descended into the trunk from a stub or flush cut.

There were multiple decay sites up the trunk which appeared to be as a result of poor compartmentalization post pruning.
Click to expand...

The furthest wound from the ground showed the least internal decay and as they got closer to the ground the average amount of decay seemed to increase as did the depth of the decay measured from the point of entry. I cannot recall if ALLof the wounds appeared to have produced the rams horns shown in the OP but SOME definately did.

The other two arrows further up has grown after wounding, we have established clearly that where there is no wound wood (differentiated callus wood) there is no wall4, that was very conclusive even by the biggest proponents of wall4 present at time of wounding proponents.
Click to expand...

I have read and reread the thread where you suggested this Ekka. I have trouble understanding how living hollow trees could exist and prosper if wall4 is absolutely dependent on the creation of wound wood. Do you believe this to be absolute or is it perhaps common that the two must exist together but not always a requirement. If the latter do you believe this to be goverend primarily by species,location,wound type or some other factors.

Barrier zones, reactions zones and wall4 held solid.
Click to expand...

The wound progressed (as expected) to the centre of the tree (pith) and decayed from inside out where once again we tested that wall4 wont initiate when the decay comes from inside migrating outside as the cells which differentiate to callus are not being affected and not triggering a wall4 response.
Click to expand...

??

These statements contradict each other. Were you having a laugh with the first one?? Do you think that wall4 initiated at all in this tree or not?

Thanks everyone for your comments so far. :)
 
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Ekka said:
When I need my lawn mowed I call Jims, when I need my trees done I call a qualified arborist who researched and studied.

Consumers choose your tree man carefully, we are far from being all the same. :clap:
Click to expand...

Its good to see you use a great lawn mowing service Ekka!

And I agree, not all tree men are the same. Some follow OHS regs to ensure everyone on site is safe and others blatantly disregard these mandatory regulations and do their own thing. :clap:
 
treevet said:
Much of it comes down to a matter of semantics.
Click to expand...

:agree2: Not much point in wrestling to fit all this data into that model.

And I also agree with Sean about those lines of demarcation showing more about fungal spread than tree response.

But discoloration is not decay; it may be just the deposition of compounds that resist decay.
 
treeseer said:
:agree2: Not much point in wrestling to fit all this data into that model.

And I also agree with Sean about those lines of demarcation showing more about fungal spread than tree response.

But discoloration is not decay; it may be just the deposition of compounds that resist decay.
Click to expand...

The darkest material smelled awful, very much like rotten meat. I took that to mean it was rot of some sort. I have not encountered wood that smelled so bad before. Is this common?
 
treevet said:
I know that people have been banned from your forum just from disagreeing with you in regards to your opinions on Wall 4 and other semi-conjectural issues.
Click to expand...

Then you are mislead and fruitfully carrying on rumour that fits your agenda.

What people get banned for is conduct, the way they approach a debate, sadly it is clear that many have to get ugly, personal, name calling, derogatory and scandelous .... then they get banned. That is the truth Dave but I am not surprised you and others like your versions because "it fits your model" of what you'd like to see the world as.

How many of the goof balls here are banned for the same reason? Can't put up a decent debate or plight, but tread down the well trodden smear and lie campaign that suits their needs.

Take a look at that OOMT, fits right in again with his distorted lies and rubbish. You're trying to educate and reason with something of that caliber, Lordy! Last time I answered his ignorant perspectives (like Treeseers too) they were selectively edited and I was banned, how befitting, Once again the cheap shots are out ... but who cares, so typical and befitting of this site.

<Yawn> Time to do something better than argue with fools. :monkey:
 
Ekka said:
Then you are mislead and fruitfully carrying on rumour that fits your agenda.

What people get banned for is conduct, the way they approach a debate, sadly it is clear that many have to get ugly, personal, name calling, derogatory and scandelous .... then they get banned. That is the truth Dave but I am not surprised you and others like your versions because "it fits your model" of what you'd like to see the world as.

How many of the goof balls here are banned for the same reason? Can't put up a decent debate or plight, but tread down the well trodden smear and lie campaign that suits their needs.

Take a look at that OOMT, fits right in again with his distorted lies and rubbish. You're trying to educate and reason with something of that caliber, Lordy! Last time I answered his ignorant perspectives (like Treeseers too) they were selectively edited and I was banned, how befitting, Once again the cheap shots are out ... but who cares, so typical and befitting of this site.

<Yawn> Time to do something better than argue with fools. :monkey:
Click to expand...

If brains were made of electricity you'd be a walking blackout. LOL
Click to expand...

This PM you sent me less than 1 hour ago says it all Ekka. You are a hypocrite of the first water.

I asked some genuine questions, posted a photograph and the only person who came here with an agenda beyond seeking knowledge was you. Feel free to contribute worthwhile information but this is not the place where you hold the power of selective editing and/or banning as you see fit. And I do not roll over for bullies, cyber or otherwise.

Thanks for the neg rep, it is a compliment coming from you.
 
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Those black lines deep in the interior of the tree are caused by competing fungi...wood turners love this kind of discoloured wood, when it is still hard, before it turns spongy...they call it 'spalting' I believe. I've seen lovely planks of spalted oak and walnut in the UK.

HATE S. terebinthifolius...

Ekka, dude, chill out!!!
 
Thats a new one on me Bermie thanks for the tip.

I found this page which although has observations rather than data opened my eyes to a few ideas.

http://www.rrpwhite.com/burl%20spalt%20info.htm

What is interesting in that small web page are the pictures of burls on aspen which are similar to growths I saw on the Schinus molle I mentioned. I wonder how closely related the creation of burls and the "spalting" actually are. Does one indicate the other or are they both symptomatic of a tree in a weakened state....:confused:
 
A lot of my cut red maple gets laid on the ground for a year to spalt and then gets turned into bowls.

up here most burls are a sign of a strengthened state.

Sorry to see the fratricide continues at the downunder cyberfiefdom.
 
outofmytree said:
The darkest material smelled awful, very much like rotten meat. I took that to mean it was rot of some sort. I have not encountered wood that smelled so bad before. Is this common?
Click to expand...

I have no reference for the trees and decay you are dealing with; however, in regards to odor, it is quite common when bacteria is present. Maybe this would explain some of the complex interactions we see on your cut.

http://rms1.agsearch.agropedia.affrc.go.jp/contents/JASI/pdf/society/47-3060.pdf

Dave
 
outofmytree said:
The property owners confirmed that wound existed when they purchased the house 10 years ago. It is highly unlikely then that point A existed at that time. It seems far more likely that point A marks the edge of the column of rot the descended into the trunk from a stub or flush cut.
Click to expand...

My guess, as good as any here, is that the tree wounded itself later with the pressure of co dominant buttresses pinching together.


The furthest wound from the ground showed the least internal decay and as they got closer to the ground the average amount of decay seemed to increase as did the depth of the decay measured from the point of entry. I cannot recall if ALLof the wounds appeared to have produced the rams horns shown in the OP but SOME definately did.
Click to expand...

Did you dissect the tree farther up to ascertain this. Let's see some pictures
 
outofmytree said:
The darkest material smelled awful, very much like rotten meat. I took that to mean it was rot of some sort. I have not encountered wood that smelled so bad before. Is this common?
Click to expand...

Not familiar with that genus of tree but sounds like the foul odor of bacterial wetwood (slime flux) in some of our trees.

(oops, missed DMC's post)
 
I think the example I had given after researching numerous books... of the hollow tree and the obvious extension of the Barrier zone might be enhanced to illustrate that woundwood (earlier callus) is not Wall 4 and the newest growth ring is not wall 4 (although as mentioned it has a greater protection capacity)......

Can be found on Page 95, A new Tree Biology with an infestation of ants unvoluntarily performing the research......

"the ants are following the microorganisms, which follow the CODIT patterns. Note the large, clean cavities made by the ants. The ants have had over 50 years to mine in a radial direction, they have not done so.

There is a picture of a tree with completely healthy sapwood and discolored wood inside where ants have riddled with galleries.
 
Ekka said:
So, which is it, that differentiated cambium cells form wall4 or wall4 is some keno reaction barrier zone independent of callus/cambium? Seems you have hedged your bets on both animals.
Click to expand...

I am not taking (a) or (b) in your quiz, I am going with (c) all of the above.

"After injury and infection, the still-living cambium forms cells that differentiate to form the barrier zone (wall4) The Barrier Zone is a strong boundary that separates the infected wood from the new cells that continue to form after the barrier zone is completed. Wall 4 is the strongest wall. Walls 1, 2 and 3 may fall to the pathogen and a hollow will result. When wall 4 does not form, or when it fails, the cambium is killed, or in some cases the tree is killed." ANTB Dictionary under "CODIT" pg 22

I also feel kino compounds form.


Barrier zones, reactions zones and wall4 ... not all the same animal and the variety plus inconsistencies I see and read validate this, just like the one written above.
Click to expand...

Barrier zone....Wall 4....same animal


You agreed with these posts, but you also wrote somewhere that wall4 has nothing to do with callus .... getting mixed messages here Dave.
Click to expand...

Wall 4 has nothing to do with callus (other than walling it off along with the rest of the new growth increment/s.

Come back and play Eric. I am sorry I said what I said. We go way back as forum friends and I regret saying what I said.
Click to expand...
 
In either scenario a new Wall 4 was formed and the barrier zone was shifted.

This begs the question.....Does Wall 4 ("limits the spread of infection") have to collapse completely and give an opening "outta" the tree to constitute a failure or just shift?
Click to expand...

This was the reason for my calling the thread "multiple wall4 failures". Perhaps the wording gave a different meaning to my thoughts than was intended. "Shifting" is exactly what I assume happened. As a portion of the barrier failed so it was recreated further from the pith resulting in the new marks.

I wonder if this has occurred does it mean that both explanations are accurate? That is, as wall4 is formed the wood darkens as noted in ANTB. Later the barrier fails at a certain point where one species of fungi, lets call this one fungiA, proves too strong. The tree then recreates or shifts the barrier at that point, perhaps even adjusting the chemical make-up of the cell structure of the barrier to defend against fungi A. Subsequent failures of the barrier would then perhaps be forced by a different species of fungi, say fungi B. This failure is compensated for by recreating the barrier which is now impervious to fungiA and fungiB but still in the decaying wood is fungiC... and so on. This would result in various "pockets"of differing fungi whilst still allowing the tree to have continued to grow.


I know this is simplified but hey, I'm a simple guy.
 
treevet said:
Did you dissect the tree farther up to ascertain this. Let's see some pictures
Click to expand...

Forgive me oh wise one, I did not take enough photo's. Gulp.

I am reliant on my memory for most of this TV but what I saw as I bucked the log from top to bottom was deeper and deeper columns of rot into the tree. What I ass-u-me-d from this was that the lower wounds were older and had more time to do their evil work.

Gotta buy a bluetooth dongle tomorrow so I can dl the photo's from my phone. This may shed some light on the subject of burls at least.

Once again, thanks all for the input. :clap:
 

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