Multiple wall 4 failures

[outofmytree]

This picture is a cross section from a Schinus molle removal we did a few weeks back. This is the best example I have seen of repeat wall 4 failure. The rotten wood smelled a lot like rotten meat. Similar bacterial activity perhaps?

You can see one of the many burls(?) in the top left hand corner of the photograph. I forgot to take any good photo's pre removal so all I have is a couple of pictures from my phone but this tree had numerous tumour like lumps all over the bark. When we dissected them there was no obvious evidence of why they started but I am sure someone wiser than I will have an idea.

You guys think you have it tough, my crew always seem to by lying down on the job!

It was this same day/night job where they asked for helmets with lights on em! Damn cheeky kids if you ask me!

 

[Metals406]

Hahaha, you could use that picture for new hires, "If you don't work hard, I club you over the head, like this guy." LOL

You fellas sure do have pretty wood down there. . . I don't think I've seen ugly grained wood posted on here from AU yet!?

 

[Bermie]

Great picture!

I find this interesting in that over here Schinus terebinthifolius often does something that looks very similar...very poor compartmentalization accompanied by foul smelling rot.

As for the lumps, S. terebinth... very often pops out 'phloem lumps' that sit for a while then sprout new shoots and leaves, adventitious buds responding to stress perhaps????
S.t. also has that pinky cast to the wood, but is very sappy round the edges, has an acrid smell and can make you break out in a rash...

 

[treeseer]

Very little strength lost; in the safety zone by the formulas.

any idea of a timeline with that infection?

 

[Boa07]

I strongly suspect what you are looking at in the dark lines through the cross section of the stem are demarcation lines from competing fungi.

 

[outofmytree]

Great picture!

I find this interesting in that over here Schinus terebinthifolius often does something that looks very similar...very poor compartmentalization accompanied by foul smelling rot.

As for the lumps, S. terebinth... very often pops out 'phloem lumps' that sit for a while then sprout new shoots and leaves, adventitious buds responding to stress perhaps????
S.t. also has that pinky cast to the wood, but is very sappy round the edges, has an acrid smell and can make you break out in a rash...

Teribinthifolia is the tree we love to hate. Nasty habit of growing like a giant bowl of spaghetti that you have to cut into foot long pieces to get into a chipper. Also is the only tree I have ever chipped that made me sneeze untill my nose bled.....

 

[smokechase II]

Rotten wood smell

We can see that the smell of the rot got to the sawyer.

Cuttin' off the holding wood as long as the bar, (after miss-matching the face cuts), wouldn't have happened otherwise, of course.

 

[outofmytree]

Very little strength lost; in the safety zone by the formulas.

any idea of a timeline with that infection?

The tree was known to be between 35 and 45 years old. The original wound you see there was at least 10 years old possibly as much as 20 years old. There were multiple decay sites up the trunk which appeared to be as a result of poor compartmentalization post pruning.

I agree there was no structural need to remove the tree this job was to allow a building extension. I made the section cuts at first for ease of hauling and as the pattern became more evident I cut to show the best example of the various failures I could find.

I strongly suspect what you are looking at in the dark lines through the cross section of the stem are demarcation lines from competing fungi.

I honestly don't know Boa. I posted this half expecting to be told it was something completely different. I looked long and hard at the various cross sections in Alex Shigos "A New Tree Biology" showing wall 4 and there seemed to be many similarities between his photo's and this one.

This was the 1st Schinus molle I had ever removed so I have no reference point to gauge whether this extensive decay is common or indeed how it is caused other than what seemed to be obvious failure at various wound sites.

Do you think the dark lines are all borders seperating different fungi or are some caused by something else?

Is wall 4 failure usually less obvious in this species?

I "think" I get CODIT but then I thought I understood women untill I got married....:greenchainsaw:

 

[outofmytree]

We can see that the smell of the rot got to the sawyer.

Cuttin' off the holding wood as long as the bar, (after miss-matching the face cuts), wouldn't have happened otherwise, of course.

Yeah not my best day out. In my defense it was a Saturday and my 660 was in the shop. I did this tree which measured 1600mm at base with my 440 equipped with the standard bar.... It was very ugly I can tell ya....

 

[Boa07]

I honestly don't know Boa. I posted this half expecting to be told it was something completely different.

Do you think the dark lines are all borders seperating different fungi or are some caused by something else?

I THINK the dark lines are seperating different fungi but the 'difference' between them can be as subtle as clonal varieties...however I don't KNOW this for a fact,

Is wall 4 failure usually less obvious in this species?

I don't know the answer to that, but I suspect the formation of the barrier zone in this species just like other tree species...since it is formed by the activity of the cambium has a regular course like the growth rings.

I looked long and hard at the various cross sections in Alex Shigos "A New Tree Biology" showing wall 4 and there seemed to be many similarities between his photo's and this one.

Yes I think I know the photo you're talking about....CODIT is a wonderful model that can be a key into the complex world of internal cellular biology within the tree...at the macroscopic level, however as Alex Shigo himself warned it is but a model and the reality that exists within any tree can be far more complex and confusing to the observer.

I think much can be gained through reading the works of Boddy and Rayner, Schwarze and Engels in developing a more complete understanding of what is potentially happening in the trees that you dissect as you remove them.

 

[treevet]

I think much can be gained through reading the works of Boddy and Rayner, Schwarze and Engels in developing a more complete understanding of what is potentially happening in the trees that you dissect as you remove them.

I think much more can be learned through the works of Dr. Shigo than the aforementioned CODIT model. I can say with a great degree of certainty that the above authors were all directly influenced by his works and they should not be understated or condescended to ("more complete") in reference.

I am gonna bite if no one else will (and my guess is this bite is why the thread was started)..... Outtamytree.....where is it that you perceive the breach/es of Wall 4 occur in your evidence?

 

[outofmytree]

Thanks for the input guys.

Boa I asked you that question because you are geographically closer to me. More reading and dissecting sounds like a good plan.

TV if this sounded like a "trick" post I apologise. What I was posting was more an assertation by a novice arborist in a peer reviewed enviroment. I could have asked "is this wall4 failure?" but that doesnt take any guts.

What I assume to be evidence of failure is the various dark lines, some of which matched the position of growth rings precisely. Having Boa suggest these to be lines of demarcation between competing fungi makes a lot of sense too.

Thats what I love about this trade. There is so much to learn. I hunger for knowledge. Feed me oh wise ones.

:newbie:

 

[Boa07]

Dave you are absolutely right that there is a great deal more to Alex Shigo than CODIT it was not my intention to suggest otherwise....

You and I have had this discussion before elsewhere and I will repeat (albeit paraphrased) what I said then...

Based on his presentations in Melbourne and Sydney I would expect very short shrift from Dr Shigo should anyone suggest that study, examination and expansion of our understanding of tree biology stop in the 1980's with his or anyone else's publications.

The ongoing discussion about the limitations of CODIT was active whilst Alex Shigo was alive and he was part of that discussion, I have never read anything from his hand that suggests he felt the input of microscopy work by the aforementioned authors was anything but beneficial.

CODIT always was and continues to be a simplified model of the process that can occur within a tree, as physical and chemical changes are commenced to limit the the spread of dysfunction within wood tissues.

To be able to understand what is happening in any specific instance of colonisation of wood tissues by wood decay fungi it is absolutely necessary to have a grasp of the interaction between fungi and tree at a microscopic inter-cellular level, the work undertaken by the mentioned authors are a very sound starting point to develop just such an understanding.

 

[Ekka]

Barrier zones, reactions zones and wall4 held solid.

 

[treevet]

Dave you are absolutely right that there is a great deal more to Alex Shigo than CODIT it was not my intention to suggest otherwise....

You and I have had this discussion before elsewhere and I will repeat (albeit paraphrased) what I said then...

Based on his presentations in Melbourne and Sydney I would expect very short shrift from Dr Shigo should anyone suggest that study, examination and expansion of our understanding of tree biology stop in the 1980's with his or anyone else's publications.

The ongoing discussion about the limitations of CODIT was active whilst Alex Shigo was alive and he was part of that discussion, I have never read anything from his hand that suggests he felt the input of microscopy work by the aforementioned authors was anything but beneficial.

CODIT always was and continues to be a simplified model of the process that can occur within a tree, as physical and chemical changes are commenced to limit the the spread of dysfunction within wood tissues.

To be able to understand what is happening in any specific instance of colonisation of wood tissues by wood decay fungi it is absolutely necessary to have a grasp of the interaction between fungi and tree at a microscopic inter-cellular level, the work undertaken by the mentioned authors are a very sound starting point to develop just such an understanding.

I remember our previous discussion as plain as day Sean. I also feel obligated to, in my insignificant way, go to my grave protecting his legacy as I am in his debt forever. Sorry for the over reaction but that's all I got.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Structually, the defect makes much less differance if not on a commonally leveraged axis; like on the lean side or directly opposite. And, the tree tries to compensate even for that. Now this is speaking to the 1st picture; structually speaking the 2nd seems that the infection has spread, giving way to total collapse; the only thing missing from that mound is to be pushing up daisys!

 

[treevet]

Barrier zones, reactions zones and wall4 held solid.

I agree completely Eric. The only case that could be made is below the marked picture....

Looking at the wound at the top of the picture that may have been caused by co dom. buttresses (may not have as well) it occurred in growth increment (A). It instigated the wound wood that Ram's Horned. The infection in the wound wood on both sides may also have been caused by pinching, in this case of the rolling wound wood (may also have not).

This breach of Wall 4, between wood formed prior to wounding and wood formed after the injury appears to have been caused, again, by injury and thus IMHO does not constitute a failure of Wall 4 in that it was not caused directly by pathogens but rather by injury. (ARROWS)

In either scenario a new Wall 4 was formed and the barrier zone was shifted.

This begs the question.....Does Wall 4 ("limits the spread of infection") have to collapse completely and give an opening "outta" the tree to constitute a failure or just shift?

Another question....Do pathogens have to delignify/decay wood to constitute a Wall 4 failure.....or is discoloration/cell death the impasse of failure? My guess is the latter.

 

[Boa07]

I remember our previous discussion as plain as day Sean. I also feel obligated to, in my insignificant way, go to my grave protecting his legacy as I am in his debt forever. Sorry for the over reaction but that's all I got.

I very much hope you know that I respect your far greater knowledge and understanding of Shigo's works than my own, and I do not consider your position an over reaction, I greatly regret never had the opportunity to talk with him one to one, his work, his depth of understanding and his passion is what drew me into Arboriculture

 

[outofmytree]

I don't know if this helps but the tree had at least half a dozen similar wounds with the same lines within lines.

Using my admittedly limited understanding of CODIT I called this photograph "multiple wall4 failures" because it seemed to me that the tree resisted decay but that, in a few locations, the resistance was insufficient to the task.

TV the rams horning was evident on at least two other wounds.

Treespyder I didnt understand what you posted. Could you try again?

Ekka you were too brief for me. Do you mean that there was no breach or that the breaches were insignificant to the tree? More detail would really help as this is a subject which causes me a headache.

I have a found a couple more pictures which may help but we are struggling with bluetooth problems. I will add them as soon as my tech support (teenage child) sorts out the issues.

 

[treevet]

.

Using my admittedly limited understanding of CODIT I called this photograph "multiple wall4 failures" because it seemed to me that the tree resisted decay but that, in a few locations, the resistance was insufficient to the task.

that is why I challenged you to identify them

TV the rams horning was evident on at least two other wounds.

I used this as an obvious example of what some (not me) might consider a Wall 4 failure.

I would deem this a breach (abiotic) of Wall 4 instead I suppose.