Stihlman441
Addicted to ArboristSite
Well said Sam,some of us realize when holding a saw most or all of the day what is the go and what isn't. 
460 vs 461 vs 441 R C-M
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Yes I have ran one that had issues, it was fixed with a little bit of work and quite a bit of money involved. I also know a few people that had out of the box failures, but they do not want the info public, and I can't really blame them. Stihl took care of them like Stihl normally does, but the teething issues, as I call them seem to exist.
Sam I know you love the 441 {maybe too much} and I do like the saw and it's technology. However I don't think I would really call any of these autotune type saw, technically advanced. What we have in these saws is really a stepping stone to real fuel injection. They exist mostly to coverup the fact that all of the OPE manufactures were sitting on their thumbs doing nothing, while the technology was out there waiting. R&D costs money, money they did not have to spend at the time, now they're grasping at straws trying to catch up. When that happens mistakes will be made. Simply look at the newer models as they were released, each model is almost completely different in design, and I'm not just talking about Stihl.
Fact is carburetors should not be controlled by a PCM. Why? Well not only do we have the normal issues associated with carbs, they now have extra moving parts, parts that are likely sensitive components. The electronic components themselves are likely very stable, it's the extra moving parts that will fail more often that the PCM itself.
I once thought like you did when it came to new anything. I thought the manufacture did their testing, and they would never put a product on the market with flaws, known or unknown. With experience I learned this is not so, in any industry. Think of all the R&D that goes into a vehicle and all the liability involved, yet they still have recalls everyday.
The 441 is a fine saw, but it's far from the perfect saw you make it out to be.
Andre.
Slamm
Addicted to ArboristSite
Seriously what were the problems. I don't have to know the names and addresses of the owners. Just what was wrong with the saws.
You see, I haven't just dabbled with the 441/cm I'ved used the crap out of them for years and have never broke one unless water was put into the fuel tank or large trees were accidently dropped onto them causing broken parts, but never have I had so much as a flippy cap go bad on over 21 441's, and my name is on the warranty card on most of them, so if they want to return the saw or make a claim, they will call me to do so .................... no calls. Like most if not all of he Stihl dealers, I get to deal with in my travels, they all say the 441 is sold and they never hear from the owner again, because they don't break, and these dealers don't know each other and are in different states to boot.
Now whether or not the Mtronic is a stepping stone for Fuel Injection or not, is no reason to attempt to discredit its functional efficiency, especially when it works so well. Its not even a good excuse to keep in tradition and use what worked for dad and grandad, because its simple, old and works. As it is simple to diagnos the Mtronics with the simplest of electrical testers and modest reading and comprehension skills, and if full replacement is necessary its only $75. That I am aware, no one has needed to spend the $75, but if it has happened, its a minority of claims, certainly much less than those noobies that have run their 460's lean and locked up the whole saw.
I know, I live in a fairyland where 441's are the greatest saw ever built, but alas, the only way I've ever heard or observed of any 441 broken or unrunning, it had to have thousands of pounds of wood on top of it. So it would be interesting to learn of these expensive 441CM's that would need repair and better yet repeated repair for minor things like electrical issues that everyone says will happen, yet no one ever has happen, and why it was so expensive? since they are a newer saw, it would seem many would still be in warranty and therefore it would be on Stihl's dollar to have them repaired.
A year ago or better, I figured the 461 to be an overgrown 361, I'm somewhat disappointed for myself that it is nothing but a better version of power over the old 460, but apparently other things are the same, AV and air filtration. I had hoped for at least a hybrid of metal spring and rubber like the 361, as my hands could operate one of those little saws for many hours for weeks without issue, but I finally got to the point where I could not use the rubber mounted saws without pain so bad that I had to start most mornings with soaking my forearms in hot water just to tie my boots. Last year I ran a 441 for over 10+ hours a day for 3 weeks and had zero hand issues, yet ran a 660, during the end of this 3 weeks for 4 hours and couldn't move my hands the next day. Its just the nature of the beast.
The air filtration isn't such a big deal to me, I ran 660's for years and it has the same old filtration system and it works, its just an extra thing I have to deal with daily, where as, with the 441 I'm in the truck leaving to go home that much quicker each day ............ to me these things add up....... as this isn't a hobby to me, its how I make money and I want to make it quickly or be with my family at home.
The greater power of the 461 is always a nice thing, but when you cut for a long time and true wood production is the supreme goal, you will begin to understand that there is what is needed in the speed department and what is "acceptably" needed to spin the chain around say a 28" bar in hardwoods. I have found that a Muffler Modded 441 CM or a ported regular 441 reaches that level of speed for me. After that the comfort and fuel efficiency of the saw plays a much larger role in getting wood on the ground than some 1-2 second advantages in cookie cutting times. I prefer a saw that can keep up with me, and I find that saws that lack fuel efficiency tend to slow me down and they want to take breaks when I want to make money. So while they make stumps a few seconds quicker, they don't limb and top trees any faster ...... maybe slower and they stop to drink more often, so they are not faster at the end of the day ............ they are slower and more expensive.
That all said, there are many that love cookie cutting times and old technology, and since I do like Stihl products and dearly want them to be profitable in order to maintain my warranties and keep my prices down. I think the 461 will be a great success and is the best successor that that 460 could have.
Bring on the fuel injection and whatever else they have up their sleeves.
Sam
You see, I haven't just dabbled with the 441/cm I'ved used the crap out of them for years and have never broke one unless water was put into the fuel tank or large trees were accidently dropped onto them causing broken parts, but never have I had so much as a flippy cap go bad on over 21 441's, and my name is on the warranty card on most of them, so if they want to return the saw or make a claim, they will call me to do so .................... no calls. Like most if not all of he Stihl dealers, I get to deal with in my travels, they all say the 441 is sold and they never hear from the owner again, because they don't break, and these dealers don't know each other and are in different states to boot.
Now whether or not the Mtronic is a stepping stone for Fuel Injection or not, is no reason to attempt to discredit its functional efficiency, especially when it works so well. Its not even a good excuse to keep in tradition and use what worked for dad and grandad, because its simple, old and works. As it is simple to diagnos the Mtronics with the simplest of electrical testers and modest reading and comprehension skills, and if full replacement is necessary its only $75. That I am aware, no one has needed to spend the $75, but if it has happened, its a minority of claims, certainly much less than those noobies that have run their 460's lean and locked up the whole saw.
I know, I live in a fairyland where 441's are the greatest saw ever built, but alas, the only way I've ever heard or observed of any 441 broken or unrunning, it had to have thousands of pounds of wood on top of it. So it would be interesting to learn of these expensive 441CM's that would need repair and better yet repeated repair for minor things like electrical issues that everyone says will happen, yet no one ever has happen, and why it was so expensive? since they are a newer saw, it would seem many would still be in warranty and therefore it would be on Stihl's dollar to have them repaired.
A year ago or better, I figured the 461 to be an overgrown 361, I'm somewhat disappointed for myself that it is nothing but a better version of power over the old 460, but apparently other things are the same, AV and air filtration. I had hoped for at least a hybrid of metal spring and rubber like the 361, as my hands could operate one of those little saws for many hours for weeks without issue, but I finally got to the point where I could not use the rubber mounted saws without pain so bad that I had to start most mornings with soaking my forearms in hot water just to tie my boots. Last year I ran a 441 for over 10+ hours a day for 3 weeks and had zero hand issues, yet ran a 660, during the end of this 3 weeks for 4 hours and couldn't move my hands the next day. Its just the nature of the beast.
The air filtration isn't such a big deal to me, I ran 660's for years and it has the same old filtration system and it works, its just an extra thing I have to deal with daily, where as, with the 441 I'm in the truck leaving to go home that much quicker each day ............ to me these things add up....... as this isn't a hobby to me, its how I make money and I want to make it quickly or be with my family at home.
The greater power of the 461 is always a nice thing, but when you cut for a long time and true wood production is the supreme goal, you will begin to understand that there is what is needed in the speed department and what is "acceptably" needed to spin the chain around say a 28" bar in hardwoods. I have found that a Muffler Modded 441 CM or a ported regular 441 reaches that level of speed for me. After that the comfort and fuel efficiency of the saw plays a much larger role in getting wood on the ground than some 1-2 second advantages in cookie cutting times. I prefer a saw that can keep up with me, and I find that saws that lack fuel efficiency tend to slow me down and they want to take breaks when I want to make money. So while they make stumps a few seconds quicker, they don't limb and top trees any faster ...... maybe slower and they stop to drink more often, so they are not faster at the end of the day ............ they are slower and more expensive.
That all said, there are many that love cookie cutting times and old technology, and since I do like Stihl products and dearly want them to be profitable in order to maintain my warranties and keep my prices down. I think the 461 will be a great success and is the best successor that that 460 could have.
Bring on the fuel injection and whatever else they have up their sleeves.
Sam
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Mike-B
ArboristSite Lurker
I'd love to see what's left of the fuel economy and emissions improvements of the 461 after all this porting/modding as well. Can it be that much smoother in the cut than a 460 either?
I know this forum seems to live by timed cookies and "feel" (truly the fodder of the CAD sufferer) but it love to put these on a dyno and emissions test before and after.
otstir:If I was the OP I'd still get the MS461 in a heartbeat.
Sam easy on the coffee. lol
The one saw I ran was ported and had acceleration and idle issues, obviously the saw being ported changes things. Out of the other two saws one would not start out of the box and the dealer could not get it running, so Stihl replaced the saw. I've met the owner of that particular saw. The other saw didn't like running in could weather and at higher elevations, it was returned for a 460.
With such a small number of saws I cannot say for sure the 441 is having a high number of failures. We simply don't have the numbers, and it's not like Stihl or any dealer will tell us. Saws like the 5100 for instance were so bad it eventually became known as a problem saw, like I said it was. I was one of the first to say the 5100 was a dud and the Dolmer guys jumped all over me for it. Sam as someone that not only uses saws, but also works on them and sometimes ports them, I can only tell you as I see it. I really could care less about the brand or model of the saw, no saw is as good as you make the 441 out to be.
Your posts can ramble on and on about the same things over and over. Take no offense, but I have to wonder who you're trying to convince the 441 is all that. Everyone else or yourself.
Andre.
The one saw I ran was ported and had acceleration and idle issues, obviously the saw being ported changes things. Out of the other two saws one would not start out of the box and the dealer could not get it running, so Stihl replaced the saw. I've met the owner of that particular saw. The other saw didn't like running in could weather and at higher elevations, it was returned for a 460.
With such a small number of saws I cannot say for sure the 441 is having a high number of failures. We simply don't have the numbers, and it's not like Stihl or any dealer will tell us. Saws like the 5100 for instance were so bad it eventually became known as a problem saw, like I said it was. I was one of the first to say the 5100 was a dud and the Dolmer guys jumped all over me for it. Sam as someone that not only uses saws, but also works on them and sometimes ports them, I can only tell you as I see it. I really could care less about the brand or model of the saw, no saw is as good as you make the 441 out to be.
Your posts can ramble on and on about the same things over and over. Take no offense, but I have to wonder who you're trying to convince the 441 is all that. Everyone else or yourself.
Andre.
Officer's Match
Addicted to ArboristSite
All due respect Andre, I have had more of Sam's experience. Sam run's way more hours on a saw than I do, and I can't even begin to compare to you in chainsaw knowledge - just want that out in the open. That said, my ported M-Tronic truly embarrasses my 100% stock MS460 in every conceivable way - power, comfort, fuel usage, ease of starting, peak rpm, air filtration (HUGE difference). Ask anybody that's used them side by side like my buddy Jeff (a non-AS guy that's busted up more firewood than the vast majority here) who lights up every time he gets to run my 441. Of those I listed, power and perhaps peak rpm are the only things that porting would have improved. I could easily have the 460 ported too, but it still won't address the other characteristics.
Sometimes I let the detractors of the 441 get to me, and I start looking at other 70-class options. Then I hit the woods with my C-M and I'm all :msp_w00t: again.
Sometimes I let the detractors of the 441 get to me, and I start looking at other 70-class options. Then I hit the woods with my C-M and I'm all :msp_w00t: again.
Sometimes we like something so much, it's hard to hear that it's not perfect.
Again the 441 is a smooth and powerful saw. Everything you said is completely accurate, and I have ran them back to back. After putting a new top end on a 441, and seeing how the M-Tronic system doesn't always work quite right {IMHO} I'm not sold on them at all. At one point it was said the 461 was simply going to be a 441 big bore, for some reason Stihl went a different direction. Not once or twice, but three completely different design concepts, that says alot.
Termite
Time To Launch
Slamm, excellent post #43. Also, very well written.
SawTroll
Information Collector
The only accaptable one of the "C" options is the CM, the others are just more or less silly "consumer saw" options.
Non-"C" options like VW and R are of course not silly either, if you need them in your conditions.
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BloodOnTheIce
Addicted to ArboristSite
I've run all three and here's how they rank for me
1. MS461
2. MS441CM
3. MS460
1. MS461
2. MS441CM
3. MS460
I've ran two of the three and the 461 was better than the 460 (with same b/c) :msp_wink:
4x4American
Got Sawdust?
here's my wryness about the computer doing the adjustments- well you know how on the newer carbatrated saws they have those cock rings that make it so you can't adjust the carb good without removing them, on the computer ones, they probably have it set to adjust the mixture to the most emissions friendly tune they can get out of it, which is never the best tune for the engina longevity. does the computer set the carb so that it four strokes without a load and cleans up when you put a load to it?
Officer's Match
Addicted to ArboristSite
Yes.
Arbonaut
Go Climb It
Wwttd?
I just ask myself, "What would TomTrees do?" If you want to get the job done right, just ask Tom.
I just ask myself, "What would TomTrees do?" If you want to get the job done right, just ask Tom.
the number 1 saw is 046 mag
4x4American
Got Sawdust?
yawl are making this such a tough decision! I'm still in between all three! I'm still real interested in the 441 r c-m, i know that when my friends finally convinced me to update from my 89 dodge w250 4x4 cummins 12v rotary pump to my present 98.5 dodge 24v cummins with the electronic vp44 pump, i cant be happier. I mean i do miss the heck outta my old truck due to its reliability record, and this new truck has had computer problems, when the new truck works i love it. for the longest time it was like i was scared to switch to newer technology from my reliable old truck, but when I did make the switch, it kinda turned me into a new person. So i kinda see that in this whole deal. I like the known reliability of the 460, i like idea of the user friendliness of the 441rcm, and the 461 will proberly be just as reliable as the 460, a little less user friendly as the 441rcm, but still i'm torn in between all three. If i won the lottery i'd get all three in a heartbeat. but that aint the deal i can only afford one, and its going to have to last me awhile and stand up to abuse. the user friendliness is a big thing because as sam said, when you're using the saw to make you money, you're using it alot, and running it for long periods of time, stopping to fuel it often, and a saw that wears you out kills time and productivity, and thats the main thing is to get the job done as fast and efficiently as possible, which really leans me towards the 441 r c-m. if i need to put on a 32" bar then i'm most likely going to be using the 066 with the 36" anyways. this saw will mostly be wearing a 28" bar. can you get the 441 r c-m in arctic version? i'd assume itd be 441 r c-m vw not sure on ordering
Arbonaut
Go Climb It
I own a lot of new gen and old gen Stihls. I'm not finding any lower fuel consumption in the M-Tronic. I won't deter you from buying it, MS261 and #362 have a noted reduction in fuel usage. Just hasn't been the case for me with the 441. Fuel usage is about the same as my modified and stock 044's. I'm finding out more about my 441's daily, however.
Stihlman441
Addicted to ArboristSite
This is wear the muff modds help on the M Tronics,i have found they run slightly richer after muff modd,so they breath better,more torque,more power and still run perfectly.
With the 441Cs i have run muff modded (2 of ) and ported ones (3 of ) for the average fire wood cutter a muff modded ones are excellent,if you ere to have a serious warranty issue get a new muff and stick it on and take it back.
The ported ones just make a good thing even better,with a 28'' ES Light,my 660 doesn't get used much anymore.
For me a 2 ported 441CRs one with a 20'' bar and the other with a 28''bar blocking up green hard wood for 5 or 6 hrs a day for days on end is the perfect tool for the job.
Something else to think about
441C fuel tank size 725 cc (24.5 oz.)
460 fuel tank size 800 cc (27.1 oz.)
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BlackOakTreeServ
ArboristSite Guru
You can still get the stihl MS 440, just one heck of a good saw, lighter and easyer on fuel, will run a 28" bar burried in oak with full skip chain...just a thought
cheeves
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I just used my 79 Dolkita a little while ago cutting up some big pin and white oak and I can't imagine a better deal or setup out there. I got the Makita at a HD rental center. The chain was on backwards so they thought something was wrong with the saw. It was brand new!! Never cut a piece of wood. I paid $150 for it and had nmurph put a 79cc Mahle P/C in it from Edge and Engine. Lost my work bench up my father's barn. Anyway that saw has tremendous power and just blew thru that tough oak. It's the toughest stuff out there save old locust and it just ate it up. Amazing saw. Just my 2cents.
user 64030
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Something important to think about as people think mostly of how often they fill up. That is 2.6 oz tank to tank.... admittedly I have not gotten much time on mine lately, I always top the tanks off to start, and haven't stop to fuel the Mtronic while cutting... but I bet I haven't gotten 10 hours in the cut all saws combined this year. Good thing I don't depend on wood to heat.
dw
