A little help repairing a splitter please?

[griffonks]

View attachment 221399View attachment 221402View attachment 221403View attachment 221398

I have no idea if these photo links will work- I never posted a photo before.... sorry about the quality, it was a really gray day, 6 to12 inches of snow forecast for Colorado tonight

Anyway I inherited this old homemade splitter recently, my friend left it to me because I repaired it twice, I took the cylinder in for a rebuild and put an old engine on it that I had laying around. I also replaced the wheels and tires for him.

I believe it is a single stage pump, or the second stage is broken, the pump says John Barnes Corp- GC-5055 A 2 C. So I want to change out the pump. I bought a 6.5HP Predator engine from Harbor Freight, so I am trying to decide between a 11 GPM or a 13 GPM 2 stage pump. I'm not sure if the hydraulic tank is big enough (6" x 6" x 14") for a bigger pump, and I am doubtful if the ram mount will handle more pressure, also I'm not sure if the valve is open centered, how do I tell? The only marks on the valve that I could find was Made in USA 080SS.

There's no Hydraulic filter, so I'll probably mount one, and maybe a new pump mount.

On the plus side, the cylinder is 4", the axle and wheels will handle 60mph no problem and it works. Please tell me what you folks think it needs. I'm going to split Pine, Cottonwood and Elm.

This is why I need the splitter, I have a fishing lease, 30 families pay me to fish for Bass, and there is a lot of blown down cottonwoods- two weeks ago there was a 100 mph wind storm.
View attachment 221411


Thanks!

 

[Fifelaker]

6.5 hp will spin a 13 gpm pump 13 does not up the pressure it will make it cycle faster. I would put a bigger tank and a filter on it.Sorry but I can't help you on the valve.

 

[Patrick62]

my 2 cents worth

the 6.5 engine and a 2 stage 13gph pump would be a good combination. You will have decent cycle time and enough grunt to split those cotton wood rounds (which can be fun, I will caution you). Run the valve you got unless you want to drop a C-Note on a new valve.

That thing is going to be a back breaker. I would jack it up onto some rounds if I had to use it for long.

The tank will work, and lots of splitters have no filter. But I would add one on the return line. If the hoses get hot enough you can't hang onto them then let it rest, or add a larger tank. Oil ain't cheap.... they like to see 1 gallon per GPH of flow... but that is ideal. Not necessary if you only run it a hour or two at a time.

Is that 3/4" street elbos on the valve?? if so.... :msp_ohmy::msp_ohmy: :msp_scared::msp_scared:
Water pipe has a rating to 700 psi. This machine can hit 2250 psi.
GET THEM OFF OF THERE!

You could have hoses made with bends in the ends, but it cuts flow. Try to stay with 45's or straights.

Okay, you got like 4 cents worth there. I think it is a fine project! a 4 inch cylinder at 2250 would be just a touch over 14 tons. which is enough to split most of the stuff, but the cottonwood is going create some struggles for it. Will have to position pieces to avoid knots.

-Pat

 

[firewood guy]

Rule of thumb

When using a 2- stage gear pump, typical in log splitters, they are available typically in 11, 13.5, 16, 22, and 28 gpm . The gpm rating is @ no load up to about 700 psi. After the second stage of the pump kicks in, the VOLUME of the pump is reduced by about 25% while the pressure soars to a max of 3000 psi of the ADVERTISED pump rating. In other words, a 16 gpm pump under splitting conditions will flow 4 gpm when it shifts into the high pressure mode. A good rule-of-thumb in determining the engine HP is to double the high-side flow rating I.E. 8 hp for this example. Remember that most all HP ratings for 4-stroke engines are peak HP and not continuous HP. Another formula is GPM x Pressure x pump efficiency (typically 83-85 % when new) Divided by 1714.Using the above example, the math would be as follows: 4 x 3000 x .85 / 1714 = 5.95 HP. But that is running that engine flat out @ 3600 rpm in a perfect world. My suggestion is to run a 16 gpm pump w/ the Predator 346 cc (probably an honest 9 hp continuous) at a little less than than flat out. We have this set-up on a 5" cyl unit and it is very slow, but the engine just hums and doesn't bog when the pump shifts so if you run this combo on your 4" cyl unit you'll be very happy with the cycle time. Bigger is better!!! Left another post for CHEAP import 2-stage pumps........Also try to have at least 3-4 times the high-side gpm volume for the hydraulic reservoir if not running an oil cooler. Just like an automatic transmission on a vehicle, for every 20 degrees F that you reduce operating temps, it will increase oil life approx 2x. I'd have to see the detent valve to make any guess on it's configuration. Hope this helps.

 

[griffonks]

the 6.5 engine and a 2 stage 13gph pump would be a good combination. You will have decent cycle time and enough grunt to split those cotton wood rounds (which can be fun, I will caution you). Run the valve you got unless you want to drop a C-Note on a new valve.

That thing is going to be a back breaker. I would jack it up onto some rounds if I had to use it for long.

The tank will work, and lots of splitters have no filter. But I would add one on the return line. If the hoses get hot enough you can't hang onto them then let it rest, or add a larger tank. Oil ain't cheap.... they like to see 1 gallon per GPH of flow... but that is ideal. Not necessary if you only run it a hour or two at a time.

Is that 3/4" street elbos on the valve?? if so.... :msp_ohmy::msp_ohmy: :msp_scared::msp_scared:
Water pipe has a rating to 700 psi. This machine can hit 2250 psi.
GET THEM OFF OF THERE!

You could have hoses made with bends in the ends, but it cuts flow. Try to stay with 45's or straights.

Okay, you got like 4 cents worth there. I think it is a fine project! a 4 inch cylinder at 2250 would be just a touch over 14 tons. which is enough to split most of the stuff, but the cottonwood is going create some struggles for it. Will have to position pieces to avoid knots.

-Pat

Thank you Patrick, I wondered about those elbows. That is why I posted. I lease this ground from a 94 year old woman, on a handshake for the last 32 years. All she will burn for heat is Cottonwood, so I bring her several cords per year, cut split and stacked. I know about Cottonwood.

 

[griffonks]

When using a 2- stage gear pump, typical in log splitters, they are available typically in 11, 13.5, 16, 22, and 28 gpm . The gpm rating is @ no load up to about 700 psi. After the second stage of the pump kicks in, the VOLUME of the pump is reduced by about 25% while the pressure soars to a max of 3000 psi of the ADVERTISED pump rating. In other words, a 16 gpm pump under splitting conditions will flow 4 gpm when it shifts into the high pressure mode. A good rule-of-thumb in determining the engine HP is to double the high-side flow rating I.E. 8 hp for this example. Remember that most all HP ratings for 4-stroke engines are peak HP and not continuous HP. Another formula is GPM x Pressure x pump efficiency (typically 83-85 % when new) Divided by 1714.Using the above example, the math would be as follows: 4 x 3000 x .85 / 1714 = 5.95 HP. But that is running that engine flat out @ 3600 rpm in a perfect world. My suggestion is to run a 16 gpm pump w/ the Predator 346 cc (probably an honest 9 hp continuous) at a little less than than flat out. We have this set-up on a 5" cyl unit and it is very slow, but the engine just hums and doesn't bog when the pump shifts so if you run this combo on your 4" cyl unit you'll be very happy with the cycle time. Bigger is better!!! Left another post for CHEAP import 2-stage pumps........Also try to have at least 3-4 times the high-side gpm volume for the hydraulic reservoir if not running an oil cooler. Just like an automatic transmission on a vehicle, for every 20 degrees F that you reduce operating temps, it will increase oil life approx 2x. I'd have to see the detent valve to make any guess on it's configuration. Hope this helps.

I'd love to have a 16 GPM pump setup, but I'd have to rebuild the whole machine as the I beam is too small. I am envious of your machine.

 

[Fifelaker]

16 gpm will not bend your beam nor will hp. tonnage will, the only way to gain tonnage is raise psi or bigger diameter cylinder.

 

[Steve NW WI]

16 gpm will not bend your beam nor will hp. tonnage will, the only way to gain tonnage is raise psi or bigger diameter cylinder.

Exactly!

HP - enough to do the job (usually 1/2HP per GPM of pump for two stage splitter pumps), any more HP is just wasted fuel. If your motor doesn't stall out, you have enough HP.

GPM - how much fluid will move through the system - More GPM, faster cycles, with limitations caused by control valves, lines, fittings, etc.

PSI - pounds of pressure (per square inch) higher pressure=higher tonnage, but requires more power to run.

Cylinder bore size - bigger is more tonnage, but slower at the same hydraulic flow rate.

It's all a balancing act, the major splitter mfgs are pretty good at matching cylinder/pump/motor combos, and you won't go too far wrong copying what they use. Going to a high-performance setup takes a little more studying.

 

[griffonks]

Exactly!

HP - enough to do the job (usually 1/2HP per GPM of pump for two stage splitter pumps), any more HP is just wasted fuel. If your motor doesn't stall out, you have enough HP.

GPM - how much fluid will move through the system - More GPM, faster cycles, with limitations caused by control valves, lines, fittings, etc.

PSI - pounds of pressure (per square inch) higher pressure=higher tonnage, but requires more power to run.

Cylinder bore size - bigger is more tonnage, but slower at the same hydraulic flow rate.

It's all a balancing act, the major splitter mfgs are pretty good at matching cylinder/pump/motor combos, and you won't go too far wrong copying what they use. Going to a high-performance setup takes a little more studying.

Thank You for all the information. I bought a 13.6 GPM Haldex 2-stage pump and a 20 GPM Nortack filter Kit. By the way, a new seller is offering new 11 GPM Haldex Pumps for sale on Amazon for $89, I spent $40 more for the faster pump with another Amazon seller. Haldex is ok isn't it?

So far I'm into the upgrade/repair of this splitter for around $290. $100 + tax for the predator 212cc engine, (I had a coupon), $140 for the pump and $30 for the filter kit.

Fresh hydraulic fluid, hydraulic fittings and some hoses, and new 2" trailer coupling as the old one won't lock, will be needed for sure. Also maybe a new mount for the pump if the old one won't work.

This splitter is outside under a tarp and as we have just received 20" of snow it will be a while before I can mount the Chinese engine and give it it's 3 hour no load break in run. I need to get this done soon as the warranty is only good for three months....

I'll send you kind folks a pic!

View attachment 221956 Here's one of the trailer my friend left me, he also left me an MS390 that is waiting for a new Stihl piston/rings set!

 

[BrokenToys]

Slight Derail..but happy I read this thread and replaced all the hydro connectors on the old splitter. I won't even go into detail on how it was set up but after spending 25 bucks on 5 connectors I am a whole lot more comfortable running the thing. Dunno the truth behind it but it actually seems to cycle and push a lot better.

 

[griffonks]

Slight Derail..but happy I read this thread and replaced all the hydro connectors on the old splitter. I won't even go into detail on how it was set up but after spending 25 bucks on 5 connectors I am a whole lot more comfortable running the thing. Dunno the truth behind it but it actually seems to cycle and push a lot better.

There is a wealth of information here, I came to this site in 2005 looking for information on repairing the cylinder on this same splitter, when my deceased buddy owned it. Too bad that he hauled back up to the mountains before I got a chance to get pics of it. If warned, I would have replaced those fittings then. Thank god it didn't blow a fitting when he was running it as he had enough health problems already.

I'm afraid the high pressure hoses on my splitter from the detent to the cylinder are too small, I think 3/8". They are going to have to be replaced along with the fittings. The new pump has a different pattern for the suction and high pressure hoses, so at least one of them will have to get replaced too. May as well get them all. I know nothing about NPT fittings.... ASAP I'll get measurements of the female ports and ask for help. Probably next week if this slug of snow melts, 23 inches so far. God Bless you folks!

 

[BrokenToys]

I literally walked into the shop there with the detent valve and piston sizes and asked "this is what I need to do". The place is a small family owned repair shop and they "edjumicated" me as well on how/what i'd need and what not to use. plus they make new hydro lines as well which i'll get to over the summer.

 

[griffonks]

I need to find a shop, last time I had 2 hoses made at an auto repair shop one leaked at the cylinder fitting at the end of the return stroke.

I will have to haul the splitter in to a shop to size the hoses and fittings after I get the new engine and pump mounted since I need some on the cylinder, I'm not sure why it has such small hoses on the pressure sides. As for the water fittings on the detent valve, maybe they were ok with the 1 stage pump it had, for sure they won't work with the 13 gpm 2 stage pump.

The new communist 6.5hp engine is running on it's break in as I type. The manual calls for a 3 hour no load run at less than full speed. After I drained out the shipping oil I bored out the base mount holes as they were full of castings, then I filled it with 10-30 and it started on the 4th pull. Not bad for a $100 engine.

The new 2 stage pump is here but I'm waiting for the new return filter kit from Northern Tool. Next week I can go mount the new stuff and start dealing with the hoses and fittings. I guess I'll use some medium thread locker on the pump mount bolts as the pump is heavy. I hope the original mount will fit the engine and Concentric/Haldex pump.

 

[Fifelaker]

The water fittings you refer to are npt (national pipe thread) you need a npt to jic adapter. you should have female threads on your valve so you need (whatever size) male npt to (whateversize)jic fitting or nipple.You can use tape or dope on npt but leave the jic fittings dry as in no tape or dope.

 

[griffonks]

The water fittings you refer to are npt (national pipe thread) you need a npt to jic adapter. you should have female threads on your valve so you need (whatever size) male npt to (whateversize)jic fitting or nipple.You can use tape or dope on npt but leave the jic fittings dry as in no tape or dope.

Thank you, I know little about hydraulics, but I want to learn.

I assumed that NPT was the standard as the high pressure fitting on the new pump I bought and the fittings on the new filter were all NPT manufactured. So, all fittings on the splitter except for suction should be converted to JIC? I do want to get the splitter hydraulics close to right for safety, function and personal pride!

Also does anyone know anything about the funky square tube drive connector/adapter that came on my hand me down? Is this setup useable? View attachment 224746View attachment 224747View attachment 224748

The engine shaft bushing is the same as the one pictured for the pump except for the shaft size. I didn't include it in the photo as it's still on the engine shaft soaking in penetrating oil... slide hammer time soon.

 

[Steve NW WI]

Can't help with the drive adapters, but on using steel pipe, Schedule 80 pipe and fittings are rated 3500PSI+ working pressure, and are pretty common on farm machinery. Sch 40 (aka water pipe) is lower rated and shouldn't be used for hydraulics. Just a bit of info, all steel pipes are not the same.

Hoses are pretty easy to find with NPT ends on them as well, there's no need to buy adapters.

Find yourself a farm equipment dealership, and bring your old hoses/fittings in with you, and if they don't have one on the shelf, they'll make em for you.

 

[griffonks]

Can't help with the drive adapters, but on using steel pipe, Schedule 80 pipe and fittings are rated 3500PSI+ working pressure, and are pretty common on farm machinery. Sch 40 (aka water pipe) is lower rated and shouldn't be used for hydraulics. Just a bit of info, all steel pipes are not the same.

Hoses are pretty easy to find with NPT ends on them as well, there's no need to buy adapters.

Find yourself a farm equipment dealership, and bring your old hoses/fittings in with you, and if they don't have one on the shelf, they'll make em for you.

Yes, I'm glad that the gentleman suggested JIC hoses and fittings as it made me do a little investigation. it seems that he is right JIC would give a tighter seal and is easier to reseal if a component is replaced. However I think I'll stick with NPT to save on fitting confusion. Mainly I need to get the fittings and hoses sized up to increase pressure at the ram and decrease heat.

I have a John Deere dealer here in my hometown, but they are difficult to deal with. I recently returned a set of Stihl 390 rings to them, and ordered a piston kit instead. When I went to pickup the kit, for $98, they wanted to charge me for the rings ($48) as they had misplaced them... They thought I kept them even though they had a return ticket for them.... finally when I asked them why I would want 4 rings they dropped it and gave me my piston kit for the whopping $98. I paid top retail trying to support my hometown Stihl dealer.

So I am going to order the fittings and hoses from Surplus Center. Last Thursday I tried two fastener shops and another hydraulic shop with no luck on parts or information, hence my reliance on ArboristSite members. Heck, I had to drive 20 minutes one way to buy 4 5/16" x 3/4" 18 thread grade 5 bolts and nuts since Home depot and Lowes drove our Ace out of business. Big Box is a big pain.

 

[griffonks]

My splitter is 60 miles away on the other side of Denver so progress is a little slow but it's almost ready to try out.

The new engine and pump are mounted, also the new hydro lines and fittings are on however the old single stage pump was so small that it had a 3/8" NPT line for suction and the same size on the return line to the tank. So rather than cap the old flanges and install a 1 inch suction and 3/4 inch return flange at the tiny fluid tank we welded up a new one, anyway it's safer than trying to flush the old one and worry about old fluid burning during tthe welding. 5 gallons, 30"x 6" x 6" of 1/8th inch steel is the new size. Now I'm waiting for a breather/filler assembly from Surplus Center to finish it. Maybe by Monday.

A new coupler has been welded on and the new filter is mounted. Monday I should be able to weld on the new tank and paint it. It's difficult to tell where to stop replacing parts. The detent valve is fine I think but the ram had 3/8" NPT ports. They were necked down to 1/4", now they are full 3/8ths to the valve. So it should cycle faster.

I have a boat trailer axle that I may use to replace the old farm tractor front end, raising the splitter at least a foot. I think down the road, after this years splitting is done, I'll mount the new/used axle with springs....

Pictures as soon as I get it running again.

Thanks for the help.

 

[griffonks]

I finished the splitter finally, well I finished this round of rebuilding it. I left for the farm it's sitting on just after dawn so of course I forgot the camera, but I'm anxious to post a pic ASAP. The hydraulic lines are still a little funny at the tank, the welder started drinking a little early I think and misplaced the return line tap insert at the hydraulic tank. I reused the original detent valve, so the hoses at the valve are a shade small, 3/8".

The new Chinese 6.5 hp engine fired right up and it started working, no leaks anywhere, about 50% faster with the new 13GPM 2-stage pump and larger diameter hoses. It shuddered a few times as the air worked out of the system and then it was smooth as silk. All the low pressure fittings are gone and a new filter is in place in the return line.

Thanks for the help! You folks are incredible.

Next will be a set of trailer springs to lift the splitter up, and a new push plate, I don't think the old one will hold up under 2nd stage pressure very long.

 

[Dan_IN_MN]

I finished the splitter finally, well I finished this round of rebuilding it. I left for the farm it's sitting on just after dawn so of course I forgot the camera, but I'm anxious to post a pic ASAP. The hydraulic lines are still a little funny at the tank, the welder started drinking a little early I think and misplaced the return line tap insert at the hydraulic tank. I reused the original detent valve, so the hoses at the valve are a shade small, 3/8".

The new Chinese 6.5 hp engine fired right up and it started working, no leaks anywhere, about 50% faster with the new 13GPM 2-stage pump and larger diameter hoses. It shuddered a few times as the air worked out of the system and then it was smooth as silk. All the low pressure fittings are gone and a new filter is in place in the return line.

Thanks for the help! You folks are incredible.

Next will be a set of trailer springs to lift the splitter up, and a new push plate, I don't think the old one will hold up under 2nd stage pressure very long.

Nice thread on your splitter rebuild!

If you'd like to have your pics show up (embeded) with out having to click on them check out the help in my sig.