advice for square ground newbie user?

[TonyM]

Those pictures ARE at the right angles. Very much so. With a file you are limited to what you can do because of the angle between the faces of the file, which from what I can tell is 120 degrees. That is why I modeled it in ProE, to see how it all fits together. I took the angles directly from Madsens sight, and laid them out as close as I could match them with a file. You DO NOT have to make the bevel line intersect the inside corner. The only thing that matters is that the bevel line goes through the outside corner. The location that the bevel line hits the inside corner is dependant on everything else. If you angle the file down more, you will at the same time loose top angle. You cannot change one angle, without changing other angles at the same time. The model shows a good middle ground, with the cutting edges of the top and the side forming about a 45 degree (top is 50 degree, side is 40 degree). I was shooting for about a 20-25 degree top angle, and about a 3-5 degree from vertical on the side. Once you set those angles, there is geometrically only one way to hold the file.

If you still think my angles are wrong, tell me what you'd like to see different, and I'll post a picture of the model with those angles, and you can see the differences. It's all parametric, so all I have to do is adjust the numbers and regenerate the model.

 

[TonyM]

I will play with the model Monday and see if I can angle the file down more and still keep around a 20-25 degree top angle and 3-5 degrees on the side, but the cuting edge angles will have to change. The teeth on my chains look just like my model, and the file is just kissing the tie starps already. I should add some more chain components in the model so one can visualize how the chain passes near the tie strap.

 

[TonyM]

After looking at my chains, I see why you seasoned square filers think my model is off. It is not the filing angles, it is the tooth. I modeled my tooth with the same material thickness on the side plate as the top plate. A real tooth is considerably thicker on the side than the top. Thickening the tooth side would move the inner intersection point much closer to the corner, which really isn't a corner but a radius.

I may not be able to square file with a high level off profeciency, yet, but I'll put my geometry and solid modeling skills up against anybody.

 

[Mange]

This was very informative, I look forward to see the new models.
If I in 100 years or so have no more to learn about regular filing I will give this a go.

 

[Crofter]

Tony, I was referring to the photo in your other thread showing the filed tooth. Was it .325 chain. That is where I was referrring to not be able to get anywhere near a proper configuration with the triangular file. Marty's cutters were looking pretty good. Here is a pic of the first strokes to convert round to square. The corner crease is coming in just below the intersection of outside corner, which is what I shoo for. The intersection of the crease inside, is just slightly up on the underside of the top plate facet. It is hard to get true repressentation in photos, mine anyway. It is true that with the file only some angles can be chosen and the result of the other angles is dictated by tooth and file shape. With a grinder, you are not locked into the 120 deg angles that are on the file, but can adjust them with the stone dresser.

 

[Lobo]

This was very informative, I look forward to see the new models.
If I in 100 years or so have no more to learn about regular filing I will give this a go.

You and me both Mange. Heck I don't even have round filing down yet, so far the maximum length chips or curds I have been able to get are only 1 inch to 1 1/2 inch in length. When I am able to continuously cut out 3 inch chips/curds then I Know I will be about ready to try and learn square filing.

 

[TonyM]

Crofter, yeah, that's what I'm getting exactly. My model just looks a little off because the side plate of the cutter is so much thicker than the top plate in real life. I didn't have an actual chain in front of me when I made the chain model, just a photo I was scaling, and I just made the whole cutter one thickness. If I change the side plate thickness, then it will look much better.

And ideally you would make the intersection of the file meet exactly on the corner, but since hand filing your bound to be off a little, it is better to be a little low. You get some pretty funny looking top edges when the file is too high.

 

[Crofter]

Tony, I have not for a long time tried to get the angles like on the Madsens site. I use more swept back top plate angle and thus any nicking of the tie strap happens in the centre of the link and not over the thinnest section at the rivet. The 45 deg. angles are better than the 55 or 60 deg side plate angles that round filing gives, but still blunter than the 35 deg or so angles possible. This is where the biggest gain is with square filing. The top plate angles are not so critical as it is doing much more splitting of fibre than shearing end grain.

 

[chainsawworld]

crofter,
i was in lowes yesterday and found a small hexagon file that looked as if it would work on .325. problems is, you have to buy the entire kit it comes with for $19.95. i have no use for the rest of the specialty files included. i bit steep for one one file. i asked if they could order just that file and noone knew.
i worked up the rakes and more of the cutters on my experimental model. i am still maintaining good chain speed but it still seems a little slower then my round filed. i am having a difficult time getting my mrs. to run the stop watch. she thinks there is something wrong with me putting so much time into saw chain. i can't remember how many times she has told me "you are already winning with what you have, why do you want to change?". one of these times she is going to ask and i'll have an answer. marty

 

[Lobo]

crofter,
i am having a difficult time getting my mrs. to run the stop watch. she thinks there is something wrong with me putting so much time into saw chain. i can't remember how many times she has told me "you are already winning with what you have, why do you want to change?". one of these times she is going to ask and i'll have an answer. marty

DIVORCE

 

[geofore]

Tell the Mrs. that it's a "guy thing" it might help her understand you better. The wife thinks I'm just nuts when it comes to chainsaws. I tell her it must be a guy thing, otherwise she'd be dragging me off to look at shoes.

 

[Crofter]

When some of my experiments didn't time out the way I had been hoping, I used to blame my wife for skewing the results with her timing. ( victim mentality; someone else is always responsible ) With the new digital, I put it on time delay and can take the times from it.
I did up two .325 chains that my son is running. One is the Stih and the other was Oregon. The Stihl is large enough cutter that it worked out well, but much more difficult than 3/8. The Oregon is not workable as the distance between top cutter and tie strap is not in nearly the same proportion as full sized cutters. Dont give yourself unnecessary confusion with 325 until you get it down fairly pat on full sized 3/8. Having some scrap chain that has not been grinder hardened is best. The chisel bit files give up the ghost pretty quick if they hit any hard stuff. To develop a decently linear and not looping stroke is actually easier for me if i file fast.

 

[Crofter]

Here are a few pics of a chain I show converting to square filed. The first one I set up and rough out the shape of the gullet and set about a 3 degree angle side plate hook. The next one is the first filing. That particular tooth has the crease set just slightly higher on the outside corner than 100 % ideal. The file is just ticking the side strap as you can see in another photo. Inside corner is close to inside corner.
The resulting ledge below the side cutter is removed / blended in in the next. This is not necessary but is desireable in a competition chain. Top plate inside angle can be seen and the mark on the tie strap just behind center of the front rivet was made by the bottom of the file.
Another pic shows a look back thru the channel the file travels as it works.

 

[TonyM]

Those are great pictures. I'm getting very close to that, now I just need to get consistancy, especially from right to left cutters. I found a new position that seems to work better for me and allows me to file the left cutters using my right hand. I have some file handles that have built in angle reference edges on them for normal filing. I wonder if there is a file handle designed for square filing with some reference angles built in.

I took a chain to cut a load of wood yesterday, and it proved to be my best to date. Very smooth cutting, requiring almost no pressure to cut, but yet not grabby. I am cutting in a tangled mess of down trees, and I really liked how the chain worked for cutting small limbs and brushy garbage. I could reach out and slice right through it and it wouldn't grab the stuff and whip it around like normal. Then I got into some dirt and was forced to square file using my stump vise. That was a challenge. I recoverd good enough to finish the tank of fuel, and then got into some more dirt. It was when I was touching up the chain the second time that I discovered a better filing position. I tried it back at the shop and it woks much better, and I have the chain back as good as I can make it. I'm excited to try this chain, as I think it will be even better.

Crofter, what are you using to clean out the gullet, a round file? I was eying the gullets last night, and wondering if it is worth cleaning them out a little better.

 

[Crofter]

Tony, cleaning the gullets is with a 1/8 or 5/32 round file. It has to be small enough to fit under without touching the top plate. Your one side is more difficult for sure. The angled set into the handle is the method EHP told me about. I picked up some handles that have something like a multi sided (maybe 9) hole in them and you can easily change the files position. I file in a clamp and tilt it forward so my file is very nearly horizontal. For me the light has to be strong and in the right position and it casts little shadows between tooth and file that gives me position feedback. The file clears the clamp by about 1/8 of an inch and this is easier to relate to than trying to watch the tie strap contact. I can file on the bar and it is good enough for cutting wood, but it is not as precise as you need to get any good times. It is less grabby in brush. I dont know whether you saw the previous pics I posted so will see if I can find it and kick it to the top. Macman is right in saying just go at it and you will find a way, but it is a whole lot less discouraging if you have the benefit of someone elses experience and even their discards. I have got a few people started and they are getting up to speed a lot quicker than I did.

 

[MacDaddy]

Roundchain Marty you Crofter and TonyM. might be a good race LOL

 

[chainsawworld]

win, lose or draw i am always in for a good(or any kind of) race.
this stuff is less grabby then round file race chain. smoother. my question still is "is it faster for me"? it is nice not having to pay as much attention to the powerhead to keep it in the max power-max cut r.p.ms.
still working it. marty

 

[Lobo]

Out of curiosity is there not a jig or a square filing plate or something else that can be purchased to get square filing down, something like an Oregon ProFile guide for square filing ?

 

[Crofter]

Lobo,
I remember seeing a picture Denis Cahoon posted of a modification he made to an Oregon filing guide. How well It worked I don,t know. There was a thread here " Atop racing cut" that adversised guides for a goofy filed sort of hybrid system but I dont think it is flying too well. I think it is more of a competition thing, but some piece work fellers save enough time with it to make it pay. Most will use a grinder though and sharpen at night I think. Crash Banger and John Ellison could fill you in more on that as they use it day in day out I think. You should easily be able to reduce cut times by 25 % of what you will get with round filed chain. Does it take longer, and is it more complicated and do files and grinders cost twice as much? Yes, Yes and Yes!

 

[MacDaddy]

roundchain marty you going to the next GTG it should be real close to where you live?
crofter can show you 25% faster.