Almost ready for my OWB install and have a few ??

[Penguins87]

I used Rehau underground insulated 1 in. pex. Very similar to ThermalPex. $12.46 per ft. down 24" and 100' run with no snow melting at all above grouind. I don't have as much as a degree drop from OWB to basement entry.

 

[i'mstihlaguy]

The solid 6" SDR-35 pipe is $38.10+ tax for 10ft x 8 pcs. Then I need 2-6" 45* fittings @ $??(guess maybe $15 ea.).
With the 1" pex I already have and the SDR-35 it's over $6 a foot and I haven't even purchased insulation yet.
4 rolls of 1/4"x48"x50' solar guard @ 90.74 a roll will put me at $11 a foot.
If I add the foam pipe insulation and some R-13 to fill the 6" pipe then wrap in plastic the cost will be in the $13-$15 range.

Is it worth the effort?

I can't get your numbers to work out. Are you saying that one 10' stick of 6" SDR is $38.10? That's way too high for one piece and way too low to be total cost for eight pieces. The Solar Guard $90.74 single roll order included $25 shipping. I don't think they would charge $100 shipping on a 4 roll order. Fiberglass insualtion is cheap and I got the plastic film free at Menard's. Its the stuff they use to wrap boxes together so they don't fall off a pallet. Just ask one of the guys in the back and they will most likely give you a couple partial rolls. Do you have alum-pex or standard? I haven't seen any prefab stuff that uses aluma-pex so there could be some cost difference there.

I don't care which way you do it but making your own should be quite a bit cheaper just by the cost of materials alone. If you are uncomfortable with it then by all means buy the prefab stuff.

 

[Mikeweems]

I came up with $6.17ft for the SDR piping and the pex I already purchased.
6" SDR-35 x 10ft @ $38.10 each plus tax. I need 8 pcs.
The 45* fittings price was just a guess @ $15 each. I need 2
150ft 1" pex tubing cost me $105. Cut in half for two 75ft runs.

I agree I thought the price was high on the SDR pipe. Only priced it at the one place so far but will be looking for other places.

You may be right on the solar guard shipping cost. I just multiplied the cost of 1 roll shipped x 4.

Looks like I'm going to make some calls and see if I can get the cost per foot down a bit.

Thanks for the replies

 

[Lurch16th]

Not sure if what i'm reading is bad news. I just finished digging my 42" deep trench, 135 ft and about to cover up the Pipe that the Heatmor Dealer sold me.

It's called Timesaver, but looks like typical 4" corrugated black flexible storm drain. The pex lines are wrapped and sealed in several layers of foil back insualtion, which appears to be seamless. And that's it. That's what they gave me. Manual says to seal the ends to create a dead air space.

Didn't know about this other stuff. I may use sand on just the pipe, not the whole trench. Or sift the fill for the first 1-2 ft, to protect it from rocks. I'm probably going to seal the ends, also per the manual.

 

[John D]

Not sure if what i'm reading is bad news. I just finished digging my 42" deep trench, 135 ft and about to cover up the Pipe that the Heatmor Dealer sold me.

It's called Timesaver, but looks like typical 4" corrugated black flexible storm drain. The pex lines are wrapped and sealed in several layers of foil back insualtion, which appears to be seamless. And that's it. That's what they gave me. Manual says to seal the ends to create a dead air space.

Didn't know about this other stuff. I may use sand on just the pipe, not the whole trench. Or sift the fill for the first 1-2 ft, to protect it from rocks. I'm probably going to seal the ends, also per the manual.

I wouldnt install the pipe you have as is if the water table is ever an issue,it will get wet,and you will need to redo it. Does the timesaver pipe have insulation between the feed and return lines? The pics i seen it looked like it didnt.If it doesnt,I would take it back,you will have a large temp drop inside when a zone is on.The cooler returning water will pull heat out of the feed pipe,and bring it back to the owb before it ever gets to the hx inside,so you will not be delivering the BTUs thru the pex you should,this will cause the indoor boiler temps to fall 15-20 degrees below the OWB temp settings.This is whats happening to mine,had I known,I never would have bought the pipe i did.Live and learn! I found this out on my own,because its happening to me.Now i need to run my OWB at 182+ and still have temps as low as 145 inside in 105 ft,due to this.Running at 182 burns more wood!If i could drop to 170 id save a ton of wood,but then it wouldnt heat well with my crappy lines.Do not install it if the pipes are right up against each other!The pipe is inferior,and you will not be happy with it.You want to do this job right,and do it once.

 

[i'mstihlaguy]

It's called Timesaver, but looks like typical 4" corrugated black flexible storm drain. The pex lines are wrapped and sealed in several layers of foil back insualtion, which appears to be seamless.

Sounds exactly like the stuff I was looking at from my OWB dealer but he never referred to it by that name. I think it was 5" though. He did tell me that this currugated pipe was thicker than standard drain pipe. I didn't have both side by side but it did feel thicker based on memory. When I told him I was going to make my own he said the sand was a good idea. I also figured I could do a better job insulating the lines myself. I did seal the end at the OWB but haven't decided if I am going to seal the end in my dry basement.

Not disputing anything being said here, just explaining what I did and that I am comfortable with it.

 

[rick2752]

So how about some real world prices on the uponor, logstor , thermopex? Everyone around ohio is between 12 and 13 dollars a foot that I have called. I am thinking of putting the logstor in some 6inch drain tile so if I ever leave I can pull the pipe out and take it with me.

Rick

 

[tanker]

So how about some real world prices on the uponor, logstor , thermopex? Everyone around ohio is between 12 and 13 dollars a foot that I have called. I am thinking of putting the logstor in some 6inch drain tile so if I ever leave I can pull the pipe out and take it with me.

Rick

That will be a show that I would pay to watch,putting logstor in a sleeve. Scott

 

[Penguins87]

That will be a show that I would pay to watch,putting logstor in a sleeve.

I second that!!! When we installed the Rehau pipe it was like wrestling a 20' alligator:greenchainsaw. Be prepared for a fight or do it during the summer so some sun hits the black casing.

 

[John D]

That will be a show that I would pay to watch,putting logstor in a sleeve.

I second that!!! When we installed the Rehau pipe it was like wrestling a 20' alligator:greenchainsaw. Be prepared for a fight or do it during the summer so some sun hits the black casing.

LOl, was thinking the same thing.My thoughts are if you roll out the logstor in the sun for a few hours,you may be able to get a 6" over it with a fww friends helping,at least in the straight sections,good luck on the sweeps and bends though!Maybe 6" drain pipe will work,but i doubt you will get it out later without damaging it if its over 50-60ft run unless there are no bends. You will need a backhoe or loader to pull it out,and id do it right after you unhooks it so the lines are still warm,and flexible.

 

[Kevin in Ohio]

I did mine 6 years ago before any of the prefab stuff was out(as far as I know) Dealer had the 6 inch green foam that goes around the pipes, then pull it all through.

My situation is a little different than most and I wanted to have NO problems and be able to change out pex easy if something went wrong. I have about a 100' run with 60' of it under concrete. Compounding problem low point is in the middle of the run. I went HI Q smooth bore solid poly tile. They have O ring seals on the hubs and is rated to be driven over with 12 inches of cover. I put a 4 inch drainage tile UNDER the main HI Q line and sorrounded it all with pea gravel on the whole run. Worry wart I am I drilled a hole at the low point in the HI Q so if water DID somehow get it there it COULD get out. Here is the low point where it comes out from the garage floor and it 50 ft to the house basement where it comes in.

Cap is just on as I add the rest of the run later when the garage was built. here is a pic of that.

In my mind it is VERY wise to do overkill on this aspect of your install. With concrete over it it was a must but I'd have done it with just straight cover as well. The hassle of a redig is NOT worth the little you save now by cutting corners.

Had a buddy who said he wouldn't have a problem and he wasn't going to waste the money on the drainage tile under the main line as he used sand. He was using all kinds of wood and when he REDUG his line it was a soupy mess as the water couldn't get away fast enough as it had no place to go. He ended up wasting more money in the long run. Think about walking in your yard after a big rainstorm and how long it takes before it isn't spongey. That's water ABOVE your pipe.

This is NOT the place to go cheap.

 

[November Wolf]

That will be a show that I would pay to
watch,putting logstor in a sleeve. Scott

That would be quite a show indeed!opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:

 

[rick2752]

We all have grand ideas before we actually try dont we? lol....Sound like I will have my work cut out for me. It is a straight shot though. I hope I never have to take it out as I love my house and land, but with ohio school levies going up around here, they may run me out of my house. Current levy if passed will cause a 1000 dollar yearly increase. They told me last time to sacrifice my coffee and I could afford it. Guess Ill have to quit eatin so we can have the new school "palace". Havin never worked with the logstor, would I be better off using schedule 35 sewer and drain in a 6 inch? I have bobcat and backhoe available. I bought my heatmor used and Im not going to install till this summer, pay it off then buy the pipe.

 

[trialanderror]

i used logstor. cheaper then the thermopex stuff from CB, and is better in my opinion. CB's stuff has ripples, so every few inches it's got less insulation....

$11.50 a foot, true 1" ID pex....

like everyone is saying, don't be a cheap a$$ and buy some home made might leak stuff. spend the money, bury it once, and be happy. what you'll save buying cheap, you will spend digging it back up, buying the good stuff at twice the price, then putting it back down.

i was going to try and cheap out, but all i read is people having nightmares the next year....

the idea is to loose heat once your INSIDE the building....whether it's right after the basement wall or at the HX

 

[John D]

We all have grand ideas before we actually try dont we? lol....Sound like I will have my work cut out for me. It is a straight shot though. I hope I never have to take it out as I love my house and land, but with ohio school levies going up around here, they may run me out of my house. Current levy if passed will cause a 1000 dollar yearly increase. They told me last time to sacrifice my coffee and I could afford it. Guess Ill have to quit eatin so we can have the new school "palace". Havin never worked with the logstor, would I be better off using schedule 35 sewer and drain in a 6 inch? I have bobcat and backhoe available. I bought my heatmor used and Im not going to install till this summer, pay it off then buy the pipe.

Rick,if your goingto use the logstor,just bury it directly in the ground.If your using conduit,being a straight shot,Ive found 6" sch PVC to be cheaper than sr 35 locally,and IMO its heavier duty as well.

 

[Lurch16th]

Well, i took a good look at my pipe. The PEX lines are wrapped together, with no insulation in between. But it's to late to take it back. But thinking about this, if the returm line robs heat from the hot line, it's going to return that heat to the tank anyway, and should require less heat at the tank. So it should be even/steven. If not, i can't imagine why an industry who makes this stuff, would put all that insulation around the pipe and not use some in between.

My lines will be sealed at both ends to create the dead air space, as recommended by the Dealer and Heatmor. Unless the corrugated gets poked full of holes, there is no way a pipe full of air, even at 100% humidity, is going to condense a pipe full of water. I guess if i leave the corrugated unsealed to create air flow, it could just keep brining a fresh supply of moisture laden air into the corrugated.

Being concerned about protecting the corrugated, i got rolls of that foam sill seal and wrapped the entire corrugated end to end with 1 1/4" overlap. So maybei helped cut down on condensation by insulating the outise corrugated from ground temps.

If i have to the insulated pex lines could be pulled out of the corrugated and i could re-wrap them myself, if my set up ain't working right. Time will tell.


Almost forgot. Since i wasn't able to get sand over the weekend, i used some sandy topsoil to cover the first half of the pipe ,in order to free-up my backhoe. Tomorrow, i'll get sand to cover the rest. That's the best i can do for now.

 

[atlarge54]

On ********** there's an installer from Mich. called heaterman who really really knows his boilers. He stresses the importance of using the proper size tubing, at proper flow rates 1" pex is good for 80K btu/hr. When you try to go beyond that you get into higher energy consuming pumps and higher water velocity which can cause noise and possible erosion of fittings. His prefered method of installing underground lines is to use bare pex of the proper size and just foaming the lines in place with a closed cell foam. Some people use variations of this method which also include insulation board. Even the high dollar logstar, etc doesn't appear to have 2" of insulation on the edges. That's not a lot of insulation for temp differentials in excess of 120degrees.

 

[John D]

Well, i took a good look at my pipe. The PEX lines are wrapped together, with no insulation in between. But it's to late to take it back. But thinking about this, if the returm line robs heat from the hot line, it's going to return that heat to the tank anyway, and should require less heat at the tank. So it should be even/steven. If not, i can't imagine why an industry who makes this stuff, would put all that insulation around the pipe and not use some in between.

My lines will be sealed at both ends to create the dead air space, as recommended by the Dealer and Heatmor. Unless the corrugated gets poked full of holes, there is no way a pipe full of air, even at 100% humidity, is going to condense a pipe full of water. I guess if i leave the corrugated unsealed to create air flow, it could just keep brining a fresh supply of moisture laden air into the corrugated.

Being concerned about protecting the corrugated, i got rolls of that foam sill seal and wrapped the entire corrugated end to end with 1 1/4" overlap. So maybei helped cut down on condensation by insulating the outise corrugated from ground temps.

If i have to the insulated pex lines could be pulled out of the corrugated and i could re-wrap them myself, if my set up ain't working right. Time will tell.


Almost forgot. Since i wasn't able to get sand over the weekend, i used some sandy topsoil to cover the first half of the pipe ,in order to free-up my backhoe. Tomorrow, i'll get sand to cover the rest. That's the best i can do for now.

Do not install those lines! You will be making a big mistake,I only wish I had know before I put mine in.Yes the heat will be returned to the tank,before it makes it inside,thats the problem,it needs to go to the house!
The whole point of the lines is to bring all the heat inside and exchange it with the inside boiler,and return the cool water to the OWB.The lines you have are exchanging the heat in the lines,the more you pull out of the hot side in the house,(the more your using)the bigger the temp differential in the lines that are laying on each other,the more the lines exchange the heat and push it back to the OWB before reaching inside.Your boiler temps will sag behind OWB temps inside,and you will not have good hot water recovery or heat recovery,and outside the OWB will be nice and toasty warm! The only time your inside boiler will be "up to temp" is when nothing is on! You dont need them then,you need it when a zone is calling.Not enough heat is making it inside,as its being drawn to the cool line the entire length(over 100ft) of the pex pipes.You will need to run your OWB as hot as possible to get the inside temps even acceptable.As for an industry that makes this stuff,believe it! there are different grades of everything out there,and maybe you could get away with in a 40 ft run,but your over 100ft. I have to dig up my lines this summer,and buy the logstor pipe,only a yr after spending $8 a foot wasting money.You will be doing the same.You will not save any money by installing this pipe,its only going to cost you more over the next few years.

 

[Lurch16th]

Hi John,
Something u stated just made me think of something. No, it definitely is not be even/steven. There is the water loop and then there is what i think of as the as the heat loop. Now i'm thinkin the pipes being close together is like having a by-pass valve in the heat loop, cuirculatiing most heat around at some point ouside of the house. Basically keeping the OWB tank warm.

Well, 1/2 of corrugated is buried, but i can still pull the insulated pex lines out and either try to get the dealer to take them back, or unwrap them and re-wrap myself.


The corrugated came with the pex already inside. If the Dealer will take back the insulated pex, is there properly insulated pex which can be pulled back through my corrugated?


If not, is it possible to re-wrap and adequately re-seal the pex insulation?

Since it's spring and my wood is free, i could run it until summer and pull the lines in better weather.

have to think about this.

 

[atlarge54]

Here are a couple ballpark figures to show where to focus on heat loss. Pex to pex contact within lineset 16 sq ft @ 20 deg temp differntial, losses returned to system. Not really desireable. Heat loss to ground for 100' run approx 130 sq ft @ 120 deg temp differential, loss leaving system. Very much not desireable.