Tim Gardner
ArboristSite Guru
Mike, I use a carabiner and a lowering rope that has an eye splice to rope out limbs too. I will double wrap it on heavy limbs. Works great and is very fast.
Aluminum Snaps?
- Thread starter rahtreelimbs
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Tim Gardner
ArboristSite Guru
Stumper, the Sherrill saddles with the small dee rings are not compatiable with a rope snap unless it is locking. The dee ring will force the snap to open. I have the paperwork that came with my saddle that states that. A biner is a lot more secure than a snap IMHO.
Tim Gardner
ArboristSite Guru
Stumper, I just went and did a test with a non-locking rope snap and my saddle.Tthe snap will twist right off the dee ring. But I guess that is not a problem since a tree climber's ropes or lanyards NEVER get twisted around huh? 
treeclimber165
Member A.K.A Skwerl
Tim
Why are you being so argumentative this morning? Forget your coffee? First Spydey, now Stumper.
FYI, he is referring to a LOCKING snap. Your 'experiment' with a NON-locking snap is exactly why LOCKING snaps are ANSI required. I've never climbed with a 'biner in my life, only locking snaps. Except my first few years when I used non-locking snaps because I didn't know any better.
Why are you being so argumentative this morning? Forget your coffee? First Spydey, now Stumper.
FYI, he is referring to a LOCKING snap. Your 'experiment' with a NON-locking snap is exactly why LOCKING snaps are ANSI required. I've never climbed with a 'biner in my life, only locking snaps. Except my first few years when I used non-locking snaps because I didn't know any better.
Tim Gardner
ArboristSite Guru
Like Stumper said, the Z states self-closing. It does not state double locking. A gate closing is different than a gate closing and locking.
i use what would be a snugged 1/2 hitch, running bowline, except the snap or 'biner is a resealable/ reusable locking ring (bowline) for rigging. After the half hitch, the working end (snap, bowline) should lace down towards the heavier end, to pull the 2 chokes closed (rather than pulling esp. leading 1/2 hitch open). If the center of balance is opposite, the trail of said lacing it can pull open the leading choke open, if the center of balance is between the 1/2 hitch, running 'biner/snap/bowline; this lacing can slip too. That is on larger stuff where the circumfrence of the spar would sit better against flat steel device (being used at wrong angle of pull); in smaller stuff i drop the hardware (use running bowline rather than snap/'biner) or usually choke with sling.
There are a number of ways that snaps are diffrent than 'biners; others are a 'biner's gate holds back more than 1 link, but a snap has one end in captured eye, snap can have sleeker profile, opening operations are not twist orientated and others mentioned. Though i would always insist on a double locking one.
i don't think the red aluminum ones look cluncky! i thought i would miss the weight for whipping it around anchors and 'boomeranging' back; but haven't had any problem from that. Then Tom's posts disspelling long running rumors about fragility issues of aluminum really helped. So, now i find myself handling it, as it dances around lightly at command, finding real wonder in this light lil'marvel replacing totally it's heavier steel counterpart.
i have had questions (but see no evidence of), excess aluminum wear from an aluminum device riding on a harder steel one; are there any cautions here? Most intense might be Steel CMI pulley eye digging into aluminum linking device (snap or 'biner), it is closest to sharp edge in this position that i have seen,as most other things are rounded steel.
There are a number of ways that snaps are diffrent than 'biners; others are a 'biner's gate holds back more than 1 link, but a snap has one end in captured eye, snap can have sleeker profile, opening operations are not twist orientated and others mentioned. Though i would always insist on a double locking one.
i don't think the red aluminum ones look cluncky! i thought i would miss the weight for whipping it around anchors and 'boomeranging' back; but haven't had any problem from that. Then Tom's posts disspelling long running rumors about fragility issues of aluminum really helped. So, now i find myself handling it, as it dances around lightly at command, finding real wonder in this light lil'marvel replacing totally it's heavier steel counterpart.
i have had questions (but see no evidence of), excess aluminum wear from an aluminum device riding on a harder steel one; are there any cautions here? Most intense might be Steel CMI pulley eye digging into aluminum linking device (snap or 'biner), it is closest to sharp edge in this position that i have seen,as most other things are rounded steel.
Tim Gardner
ArboristSite Guru
Ken, nother way a snap is different than a biner is if the rope is twisted on the gate and the "lock" is bumped or pressed while attached to the limb, it will open causing a failure. If the biner lock is bumped or pressed it will not open. Both the biner and snap need to be double checked before making the cut. IMHO, this is a another case where a biner that takes 3 actions to open is more secure than a snap.
Stumper
One Man Band
Tim, You are absolutely right about non compatibility of non locking snaps with some D's. On the other hand they are compatible with standard D's.
165, Thanks for coming to my defense. Actually though , the snaps I'm talking about were once called a "locking" Snap but are best described as self-closing. The gate is notched to engage a tit on the nose of the hook and it is very secure on a large D. If the radius it is clipped to is small enough or if the D is D shaped rather than circular in its opening then it is possible to spin it off the D (Non locking biners are of course sucseptible to this in just about any application) Bottom line is that the Z still reflects the inherent safety of these snaps in their proper application. I really like them on my lanyard because they facilitate a fast clip in with zero fumbling with the lock. For my Climbing line I've always used a spreader(which is safe because it is redundant-2snaps) or a double locking snap.
165, Thanks for coming to my defense. Actually though , the snaps I'm talking about were once called a "locking" Snap but are best described as self-closing. The gate is notched to engage a tit on the nose of the hook and it is very secure on a large D. If the radius it is clipped to is small enough or if the D is D shaped rather than circular in its opening then it is possible to spin it off the D (Non locking biners are of course sucseptible to this in just about any application) Bottom line is that the Z still reflects the inherent safety of these snaps in their proper application. I really like them on my lanyard because they facilitate a fast clip in with zero fumbling with the lock. For my Climbing line I've always used a spreader(which is safe because it is redundant-2snaps) or a double locking snap.
Tim Gardner
ArboristSite Guru
Stumper, I use a locking snap on my wire core flipline. But I prefer a biner on my climbing line. I am not saying a snap is wrong, just that IMHO a biner is more secure.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
For rigging I've started been using a captive eye 'biner attached with a fishermans knot. I like how the fmk tails back onto the working rope.
rbtree
Addicted to ArboristSite
Is it even possible to buy a self closing, non locking snap anymore? I dont think so. I dont know if it is even legal to produce them.. I'm sure the Z is referring to the double action snaps of today, although the explanation does sound ambiguous.
25 yrs ago, I clipped in my old single action snap, and leaned back without checking it. It twisted out, and I had to grab a limb to keep from falling 70 feet out of the alder i was in. After that incident, I always checked!!. And added a shackle between the flip line eye and snap. When swivel snaps came out, I switched to them. They are great but not as needed with a non steel core lanyard, so the aluminum ones have a place in my gearbag...
But flipping weight is nice, so steel still has its place. Good also for lifeline retrieval when doing overhead tosses-steel biner, snap, or quick addition of throw ball.
25 yrs ago, I clipped in my old single action snap, and leaned back without checking it. It twisted out, and I had to grab a limb to keep from falling 70 feet out of the alder i was in. After that incident, I always checked!!. And added a shackle between the flip line eye and snap. When swivel snaps came out, I switched to them. They are great but not as needed with a non steel core lanyard, so the aluminum ones have a place in my gearbag...
But flipping weight is nice, so steel still has its place. Good also for lifeline retrieval when doing overhead tosses-steel biner, snap, or quick addition of throw ball.
Tim Gardner
ArboristSite Guru
RB, not that anyone would want to climb on a non-locking snap anymore (yeah, right), my dad had to long ago before the locking ones came out, but you can purchase a non-locking snap and a non-locking spreader snap from Sherrill.
I agree with you about the way the Z refers to the snap. I have a Kong biner that has been fitted with a bent gate that is self closing but non-locking. I would never use it to climb with. I hope the snap section of the Z has been revised to help keep climbers from experiencing that sudden stop when a snap fails from being self closing but non-locking (or the locking feature has been defeated).
I agree with you about the way the Z refers to the snap. I have a Kong biner that has been fitted with a bent gate that is self closing but non-locking. I would never use it to climb with. I hope the snap section of the Z has been revised to help keep climbers from experiencing that sudden stop when a snap fails from being self closing but non-locking (or the locking feature has been defeated).
Nickrosis
Manned by Boderators
I think the snaps are more likely to close and lock every time than a carabiner. Periodically (and frequently if you don't maintain them), a biner will not completely close, but a snap is simpler in operation and doesn't really need lubrication.
When I close the biner, I always want to see it close, but with the snaps, the sound of it alone is assurance enough for me. In lanyard situations, you're clipping and un-clipping frequently which is much faster with a snap.
Tim, thanks for clarifying that you use snaps for your flipline and a biner for your climbing line...I wasn't sure if you were completely opposed to snaps or what.
Nickrosis
When I close the biner, I always want to see it close, but with the snaps, the sound of it alone is assurance enough for me. In lanyard situations, you're clipping and un-clipping frequently which is much faster with a snap.
Tim, thanks for clarifying that you use snaps for your flipline and a biner for your climbing line...I wasn't sure if you were completely opposed to snaps or what.
Nickrosis
Tim Gardner
ArboristSite Guru
Nick, if you are relying on the sound of the snap closing to be sure it is clipped in, you are asking for trouble. I am completely against snaps. If the wire core flipline was offered with just a swivel as opposed to a swivel snap, I would have one like that so I could use my Mongoose biner. A biner is setup so that you can easily use your finger tips to open it (when clipped into the center ring or side rings) while a snap seems to have the lock in the wrong place to be opened fast (when clipped to your right side dee ring). I guess it all comes down to what you are used to working with as far as speed to clip in and out of the dee rings.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
The only thing I don't like about snaps is that when you get a flake of sawdust in the safety, you cannot open it without picking the danged thing out.
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
Among the good things that Marv taught me when I started to climb was to SEE the snap close on the d-ring, not just hear it. That advice has paid off a few times over the years.
Before the Z was even considered I had a snap get sideways and open up, slipping off one of my front dees. For some odd reason I happened to look down at my rope before I leaned back. Can you say "Butt Pucker"? My stomach did a flip flop too. Then, less than ten days later it happened again. That night I went down to the mountaineering shop and bought a steel, screw gate biner from Stubai. I still checked the screw gate but never had it open. Then, along comes the Z a few years later...In the mean time I switche to the Black Diamone Super Locks. Still use them occasionally for rec climbing.
Over the years of using double locking steel rope snaps and now the flat ones in aluminum, I've had less problems with the Al snaps. I like the hand action. Have you seen the biners, I think they're called Predators, that have a captured eye but a double lock like a rope snap? With one of the B'ham saddles these biners could get twisted and open up on the side d-rings. Pete Donzelli showed me that one. With larger d's it wasn't a problem.
Tom
Before the Z was even considered I had a snap get sideways and open up, slipping off one of my front dees. For some odd reason I happened to look down at my rope before I leaned back. Can you say "Butt Pucker"? My stomach did a flip flop too. Then, less than ten days later it happened again. That night I went down to the mountaineering shop and bought a steel, screw gate biner from Stubai. I still checked the screw gate but never had it open. Then, along comes the Z a few years later...In the mean time I switche to the Black Diamone Super Locks. Still use them occasionally for rec climbing.
Over the years of using double locking steel rope snaps and now the flat ones in aluminum, I've had less problems with the Al snaps. I like the hand action. Have you seen the biners, I think they're called Predators, that have a captured eye but a double lock like a rope snap? With one of the B'ham saddles these biners could get twisted and open up on the side d-rings. Pete Donzelli showed me that one. With larger d's it wasn't a problem.
Tom
Stumper
One Man Band
Interesting input all. RB and Tom those kind of incidents will give any climber the willies. I'm curious though-what snaps were you using and with what kind of Ds. I'm curious because I have really tried to unclip the Bourdon 1210's off my saddles by twisting wiggling and runningtwigs agaist the gate etc. and I have never been able to do so (I use large Ds with straight sides on the saddle side full circle interior) The 1210 will roll right off a small circle but is well engineered for the Ds I use.
Tim Gardner
ArboristSite Guru
Stumper,
Post a pic of that snap. It sounds like a safe one.
Post a pic of that snap. It sounds like a safe one.
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
The rool out incidents occured more than 15 years ago. I had a large dee ring as a flaoter on my saddle and a single locking steel snap. I can picture the saddle, but I can't remember the manufacturer.
I've never heard of anyone having a double locking snap open up. Pete discovered that the snap would open with his B'ham because he tried to make it open while checking his gear. He didn't have that happen while climbing.
Tom
I've never heard of anyone having a double locking snap open up. Pete discovered that the snap would open with his B'ham because he tried to make it open while checking his gear. He didn't have that happen while climbing.
Tom
Visually checking snaps and not going by the sound, is commanded in iron work etc. Going by sound, you could easily be hooking to air, an accesory ring, have your shirt caught in it etc.
i've looked own to find 1 side of a non-locking spreader open, non locking snap open, screw lock 'biner, captive eye 'biner etc.
It only takes 1, guess i figure i've had enough chances! Holy clamping spinchter Tom?
i wish the aluminum throat was deeper, if i bring it to front to capture both D's for more comy posititoning, it can take a lil'finangling to get them in. i think they get a piece of bark wedged under the lock release easier for some reason though.
i've looked own to find 1 side of a non-locking spreader open, non locking snap open, screw lock 'biner, captive eye 'biner etc.
It only takes 1, guess i figure i've had enough chances! Holy clamping spinchter Tom?
i wish the aluminum throat was deeper, if i bring it to front to capture both D's for more comy posititoning, it can take a lil'finangling to get them in. i think they get a piece of bark wedged under the lock release easier for some reason though.
