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I'd be amazed if there isn't a gas valve at the furnace that allows other appliances to remain in operation. Does the boiler have a pilot or electonic ignitor?
Try to be like a good doctor and..............DO NO HARM.
Try to be like a good doctor and..............DO NO HARM.
M
mingom
Guest
No pilot, its electric ignition.
M
mingom
Guest
Just an update, sent an email to the guy J1M recommended, calling tomorrow. Haven't shut off the propane, not sure if I should/whether it would kill all my zone controllers. I did open up the triple aquastat on the propane unit, found the settings at 120 L, 140 H, 15 degree differential. Hope to resolve this soon before it costs me too much more in propane.
M
mingom
Guest
Talked to the guy today, his thoughts were that its either my pex lines bleeding heat into the ground, or my pump is not working correctly at the boiler. I'm hoping its the pump. I took temp readings using a thermocouple hooked to the copper line right after the pex and got readings around 160-164 pretty constantly (with a few drops here and there to 145 ish, i think it was just how I was holding it). The boiler ETC was reading 169, so no huge loss there it seems. So hopefully its the pump, does anyone have any ideas on how to check it/ how to change it with the boiler running?
Thanks,
Thanks,
Oxford
ArboristSite Operative
Without seeing where your pump is (outside at the wood boiler or inside at the HX, for example,) I can tell you that centrifugal pumps like the wet-rotor pumps that are typical in OWB installations don't pump for a variety of reasons, but the easiest way to tell if they're pumping is with an amp-clamp. Read the (F)ull (L)oad (A)mps of the pump motor on its nameplate and then clamp ONE of the leads to the motor. If it's moving water, it should be drawing roughly 80% FLA, depending on the system it's in. If it's not, it's because:
1. The impeller is shot in the pump from oxygen pitting, cavitation, or abrasive material in the water.
2. It's air-bound. Try closing a valve on the discharge of the pump, then opening it. Does the sound change? It should. Open a bleed fitting on the discharge. You should get a straight stream of water, no air.
3. You're low on water.
4. You have a restriction in your system. A zone valve on your HX is bad, an isolation valve is closed or throttled, something like that.
If you don't have a clamp, you're going to have to shut off the propane boiler, probably by turning its thermostat way down, then measuring temperature change across your heat exchanger. Your OWB return water temperature should be about 5 degrees warmer than your indoor boiler target temperature, and your OWB supply should probably be 20 degrees warmer. If that water is not cooling, it's not flowing.
These same things are true for your indoor boiler loop as well. Make sure it's at 12# pressure and full all the way, or it won't work either.
Good luck,
Oxford
1. The impeller is shot in the pump from oxygen pitting, cavitation, or abrasive material in the water.
2. It's air-bound. Try closing a valve on the discharge of the pump, then opening it. Does the sound change? It should. Open a bleed fitting on the discharge. You should get a straight stream of water, no air.
3. You're low on water.
4. You have a restriction in your system. A zone valve on your HX is bad, an isolation valve is closed or throttled, something like that.
If you don't have a clamp, you're going to have to shut off the propane boiler, probably by turning its thermostat way down, then measuring temperature change across your heat exchanger. Your OWB return water temperature should be about 5 degrees warmer than your indoor boiler target temperature, and your OWB supply should probably be 20 degrees warmer. If that water is not cooling, it's not flowing.
These same things are true for your indoor boiler loop as well. Make sure it's at 12# pressure and full all the way, or it won't work either.
Good luck,
Oxford
M
mingom
Guest
Pump is outdoors, right at the OWB. I think I can grab a clamp on from work tomorrow, hopefully will be able to check that.
M
mingom
Guest
Basic sketch of the system. Still no ideas, need to borrow the clamp on from work tomorrow.
View attachment 212661
View attachment 212661
bluestem
ArboristSite Operative
Here is your diagram:
So going back and reading the thread,
the Triple Aquastat on the propane end is set at 120 to 140
the Honeywell Aquastat is set at 80 (is this a heat exchanger or mixing valve?)
If this is correct, and you want the propane to not come on don't you want these switched or am I completely lost with your system?
So going back and reading the thread,
the Triple Aquastat on the propane end is set at 120 to 140
the Honeywell Aquastat is set at 80 (is this a heat exchanger or mixing valve?)
If this is correct, and you want the propane to not come on don't you want these switched or am I completely lost with your system?
M
mingom
Guest
Here is your diagram:
So going back and reading the thread,
the Triple Aquastat on the propane end is set at 120 to 140
the Honeywell Aquastat is set at 80 (is this a heat exchanger or mixing valve?)
If this is correct, and you want the propane to not come on don't you want these switched or am I completely lost with your system?
The honeywell aquastat is clamped on at the heat exchanger, set at 80 and wired back to a taco SR501 relay
Sawmill
ArboristSite Operative
Do you have a shutoff vavle between your pump and furnace? Mine has one on each side of the pump. If you can avoid doing so don't take the line off the pump as they will get shorter and you won't be able to get your pump back and hooked up. See if you can just replace the cartiage.
kykayaker27
ArboristSite Member
my family uses a huge owb for heating a greenhouse usually every couple years one of the pumps die,and last year we chnged out a couple of radiators got air in the line what a pain,keep chugging rite along man those owb are a lifesaver,dave
russhd1997
Innocent By Stander
The way that I set my system up the hot water from the OWB goes directly to the boiler in the house first. The rest of the heating system is plumbed to the boiler in the house so that if I had to use my oil burner all that I have to do is turn off the OWB and close a couple of valves. I have a heat exchanger that is plumbed into the Return Line to the OWB.
saw dog
ArboristSite Operative
Hi
If I read your post correctly you are the third owner of the house in 5 years, may be that it cost to much to heat the house is the reason for so much turn over in ownership. Just a thought, probably doesent even apply but a thought. Good luck hope it all works out.
If I read your post correctly you are the third owner of the house in 5 years, may be that it cost to much to heat the house is the reason for so much turn over in ownership. Just a thought, probably doesent even apply but a thought. Good luck hope it all works out.
1grnlwn
ArboristSite Operative
There has to be a way to shut off the propane boiler, if for no other reason to see if the OWB will heat the whole house and to see what happens to the domestic system. It could be educational, simulating running out of propane, for example.
hanniedog
Addicted to ArboristSite
Glad I went with an indoor pressurized unit, don't have the heat exchanger to deal with. Plus once the system is up and running you don't have bleed the air every year. System is simple wood boiler has 24/7 pump on it, it is plumbed into the return of the propane unit. There are three electric valve that either allow heated water to the house or makes a loop back to the wood burner. When the house calls for heat the valves open and the pump on the propane unit kicks on to supply heat to the house. There is an aqua stat that prevents the propane unit from firing until water gets to near 140 at the wood burner. When it trips the propane unit fires up and the valves go back to a loop so as not to heat the water in the wood burner. Hope you get things sorted out.
M
mingom
Guest
I don't believe so, at least I hope. I know the first owner left due to financial reasons/owning a farm in another state, his parents still live next door to me, and his brother on the other side. The owners we bought it from owned some tim hortons franchises, a few of which closed so they moved closer to the other franchises.
M
mingom
Guest
I've got a woodboiler installation guy stopping by tomorrow to check out the system. He's leaning towards poor quality/poorly insulated pex lines, but says theres still time to install new ones before everything is fully frozen (groundwise). I'm still hoping there is something else going on instead.
Oxford
ArboristSite Operative
I'm going to try one more time. I am a service pipefitter who spends a bunch of time with large hydronic heating systems. Some people think I know what I'm talking about.
Do these things in order and write down the numbers:
1. Measure the supply and return temperatures to both your OWB and the inside loop side of your indoor HX.
2. You previously measured current draw of your OWB pump at about 1/3 of full load. This means that it's not moving much water, either because the head is too high (restricted valve or plugged HX) or because the pump is toast.
3. You also mention in another thread that the pump is making a grinding noise. This noise is either mechanical, from interference in the machinery of the pump - unlikely as the amp draw is low but possible - or as a result of pump cavitation due to a restricted suction on the pump. If your drawing is correct and the pump is pumping away from the boiler, is it possible that there is trash in the suction line to the pump? SLIGHTLY loosen the flange bolts on the suction side of the pump and see if water comes out while the pump is running. If it doesn't, your suction line is plugged.
4. If your boiler is delivering 165* water and the return is more than 15* cooler than the supply, you're not delivering enough OWB water to the HX. I strongly doubt that your underground pipes have lost enough R value that they are no longer insulated. How much wood are you using? If your OWB fuel consumption has not skyrocketed, you don't have heat transfer anywhere, either to the ground or to your house.
Good luck to you, since good advice appears to be wasted.
Do these things in order and write down the numbers:
1. Measure the supply and return temperatures to both your OWB and the inside loop side of your indoor HX.
2. You previously measured current draw of your OWB pump at about 1/3 of full load. This means that it's not moving much water, either because the head is too high (restricted valve or plugged HX) or because the pump is toast.
3. You also mention in another thread that the pump is making a grinding noise. This noise is either mechanical, from interference in the machinery of the pump - unlikely as the amp draw is low but possible - or as a result of pump cavitation due to a restricted suction on the pump. If your drawing is correct and the pump is pumping away from the boiler, is it possible that there is trash in the suction line to the pump? SLIGHTLY loosen the flange bolts on the suction side of the pump and see if water comes out while the pump is running. If it doesn't, your suction line is plugged.
4. If your boiler is delivering 165* water and the return is more than 15* cooler than the supply, you're not delivering enough OWB water to the HX. I strongly doubt that your underground pipes have lost enough R value that they are no longer insulated. How much wood are you using? If your OWB fuel consumption has not skyrocketed, you don't have heat transfer anywhere, either to the ground or to your house.
Good luck to you, since good advice appears to be wasted.
M
mingom
Guest
Thanks for the advice, it is not unheeded. I took temp readings at all points as best I could before and posted them, but I'm not sure how accurate they are as they are being taken using a thermocouple and a multimeter. I started investigating the pump a bit more and realized it is a pump on the return side, pumping hot water from the indoor system to the hx.
You could be correct that I'm not transferring correctly, I don't know if the OWB consumption has gone up as this is my first season with it. It seems like I'm burning an awful lot of wood.
I'm sorry if it seems like I'm not listening to your advice, I'm trying. I just am concerned about the fuel i'm burning on both sides and was recommended this boiler guy by an arboristsite member.
Thanks.
You could be correct that I'm not transferring correctly, I don't know if the OWB consumption has gone up as this is my first season with it. It seems like I'm burning an awful lot of wood.
I'm sorry if it seems like I'm not listening to your advice, I'm trying. I just am concerned about the fuel i'm burning on both sides and was recommended this boiler guy by an arboristsite member.
Thanks.
