Am I doing something wrong

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Don't know if this will help, but I'm getting deja vu reading your post. Rather than figure out your system, I just want to pass along my experience in case it gives you any help troubleshooting. We bought our house last March and only ran the woodburner a week so it wasn't until this October that I started to analyze how the whole system worked. The first thing I noticed was, similar to what you're describing, even with the woodburner blasting our gas furnace was coming on all the time. Here's our set up: a Mahoning woodburner (290 gallons) sends hot water into a SuperStor Ultra indirect fired hot water tank in the basement. This hot water tank has a single wall heat exchanger, so heat is transferred at this point from the wood boiler water to the water for our baseboard heating system. The pump from the OWB to the heat exchanger runs continuously, and we set the OWB at 190 degrees, which results in water temps between 165 - 175 degrees (aquastat on the OWB is screwed up a bit). The heated water then exits the SuperStor tank and enters a Smith gas fired boiler, from there up into the house to do its job via a second circulator pump.

First we had a heating/cooling guy come over to clean the gas furnace and try to make sense of the system for us. On the way out, he noticed one of the numerous valves in the maze of copper piping in the basement was closed - it just happened to be the valve that allowed the hot water from the heat exchanger to mix with the water from the gas boiler. So first lesson learned: look for simple solutions. This seemed to help, but we were still hearing the gas boiler come on nearly every time the house thermostat kicks on, although it wasn't staying on as long as before. I spent some more time in the basement watching the furnace cycle through, and here's what was happening:

The Smith boiler has an aquastat which measures the temp of the water inside the gas boiler reservoir. The minimum setting for this aquastat is 180 degrees, so that's where we set it. When the thermostat in the house turns on, two things happen: the circulator pump starts pumping water through the system, and the aquastat in the gas boiler kicks on the gas furnace if the water temp in the boiler reservoir is low enough. The problem was, because the water inside the boiler had cooled down to 130 or 140 degrees between cycles, the gas boiler ALWAYS came on, even though I had hot 175 degree water waiting in the tank with the heat exchanger. Eventually, the pump brought this hot water through the gas boiler reservoir on its way up into the house, so running the wood burner at 175 degrees shortened the amount of time it took the gas boiler to raise the water temp in the reservoir from 140 to 180 degrees from about 10 minutes to 2 or 3. But the gas boiler was still coming on, so the solution: I unplugged the wires on the gas boiler aquastat and plugged them into the aquastat on the indirect fired water heater tank (in fact, eventually I just unplugged the aquastat altogether). So second lesson learned - don't let your aquastat fire based on cold water sitting in a reservoir between cycles, make sure it's measuring the temp of the water that's actually doing the work in the system. I'm not sure if this could be happening in your case, but it's something to think about. Our gas boiler doesn't fire at all anymore, and we're heating a poorly insulated 1870's 2600 square foot farm house on 10 - 12 hour burns, so it can be done.
 
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Your symptoms don't sound like the cause is a bad line set. You should still be able to get the house warm----however your wood consumption would be higher than normal.

What does the lineset look like where it enters the home?

I hope your tech has more emphasis on tech and less on sales. Spend some time with him and get an explaination of your system and take notes.
 
I guess part of my issue is that I don't know what my normal wood consumption would be as this is my first season with the boiler, hopefully he can steer me in the right direction, if I feel its just a sales pitch I'll go on my way and go from there.
 
One thing, you said your pump is on the return line. If it is a circulation type pump it won't work good that way. It should be on your line going into the house.
 
Okay, so the OWB installer came and left with some suggestions. We think the issue lies within the plate to plate heat exchanger, with it being a.) seemingly plugged, and b.) undersized for the application. I have a 20 plate hx, and he recommended upsizing to either a 40 or 50 plate, and putting ball valves and tees in on all four inlets so we can run hydrocloric acid through it easily when it begins to scale up again. He's estimating about 1000-1200 dollar job to put in a new hx, all the piping, and adding 2 new aquastats to control the system. One to kill power to the propane unit at B1 until it has to come one, and one to control the blower at the OWB (if the temp gets below 130 or so, as if I left and didn't fill, it would kill power).

Just wanted to give you an update. Thanks for all the help! I appreciate any comments and help!
 
If the system used to work fine, something to consider has the water treatment been kept up? Does the system have Wye strainers? Maybe the plate Hx has lime and or sediment?


Bingo, now don't ignore the strainers and water treatment. I avoided plate exchangers because of seeing too many problems with lime and sediment. Does it help to mount them with any particular orientation? Hope your boiler didn't suffer too bad regarding corrosion, the open side of your system requires watching.

If you do the upgrade it'd be nice to have a few temp gauges in place so you can see what the exchanger is doing.

Nice to see you're getting things sorted out.
 
Thanks, I appreciate the help, sorry if people haven't thought I have been listening to their advice. What do you mean suffered with corrosion, from the minerals in the water? I'll definitely be adding places to flush out the system/fill, add some temp gauges. He also said he likes to put in swiffer valves on either end to blow out water if I'll be gone for a long time. If anyone has suggestions on what to get in terms of a hx and valving, please let me know!
 
The OWB side is open to the atmosphere and the water can absorb oxygen which is corrosive. The inside system is closed to the atmosphere and whatever oxygen is in the system is "consumed" and no more oxygen becomes available----if the pex has an oxygen barrier present. Both systems need treatment but the open system is more critical.
 
Well, you're part of the way. Before you condemn that HX bear in mind that, depending on manufacturer, a 20-plate exchanger is good for 125k to 175k BTU/H. You don't need that much unless you're running a greenhouse or a commercial laundry.

If I were you, I'd pipe in four full-port ball valves as isolation valves for the heat exchanger. I would also pipe a bypass on the boiler side of the heat exchanger, so you can run on the gas boiler as you're cleaning the HX. I would put three tees in each of the four lines between the isolation valve and the heat exchanger, one each for temperature and pressure gauges and one with a boiler drain. This will give you a place to drain each side as well as access for a circulating pump to circulate the acid that you're going to need to clean out the lime from your heat exchanger.

After you have it clean, note the pressure drop through your exchanger on both sides. When that pressure drop goes up, that's an indicator that your exchanger is fouling. I doubt that it's fouled on the pressurized side, since very little water goes into that system. It's closed, so there is no evaporative loss and no makeup to add minerals to the system as it evaporates. As other posters have noted, it's important to treat your water so that this doesn't happen again in the future.

I don't think I'd stick $1200 in an exchanger until I knew for sure I couldn't clean the one I had. You can do the piping as described for probably $200 in materials if you're reasonably handy. You're going to have to do it if you change out the exchanger anyway and having the valves will make the change easier if you have to do it.

Good luck.
 
Yes, but remember to pipe it off a tee. The best way, if the orientation of your HX allows it, is to put one high and one low, so that the high one acts as a vent and the low as a drain.

Also, your HX is good for 128kBTU/hr. If your house is well-insulated and not huge, that should be enough if it's operating correctly I would think.
 
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I'm looking into it Oxford, is there any direct calculation for sizing the hx? I have about 3000 sf to heat approx, maybe a little less. I was looking at possibly this if I need to upsize.

40-plate Brazed Heat Exchanger (1" MNPT)

I didn't know if anyone had used a Brazetek before.

Also, any suggestions on an aquastat to drop in, to be wired back to B1 on the propane unit to keep it from coming on.
 
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I am a great fan of changing one thing at a time. Until you inspect the heat exchanger that you already have (and maybe not even then), you don't know what your problem is. If previous owners had plenty of heat, it stands to reason that you should too. Something has changed, but it's not the physical layout of the equipment. One thing I didn't mention is to put unions on all four connections of your heat exchanger.

Although I have a pretty good idea what you're trying to do, I'm drawing a line at telling you how to interrupt your boiler controls. If I could physically see and touch your system and verify functionality of the controls, OK. Definitely not over the internet. AND, I'll say again, it worked before. You should not change anything until you get gauges at your heat exchanger so you can start understanding your problem.

Good luck.
 
I appreciate your help, and the reasons why you don't wnt to offer advice on the controls side of things, I build industrial automation equipment and wouldn't want to advise without seeing the equipment firsthand. On that note, do you think its worth keeping the 20 plate hx, having it plumbed in correctly and flushed and seeing what happens? That would save me at least $430 dollars (the price of the hx he wants to use). I believe then if the hx was undersized, I could swap it out easy, as I could isolate it and all 5 x 12 hx's have about the same plumbing.

Again, thanks for the help. This is my first house and go around with an OWB
 
I have been following your post and there is some very good advice on here so far. If it was me, I’d remove and flush your heat exchanger and when you re-install it, do it right. I use a 10 plate for my hot water. I put ball valves and Y strainers on both incoming and out going lines on my exchanger and I also put unions on each line. My thinking was if the exchanger were to get plugged, I could connect a small pump to the exchanger via the unions and flush my exchanger without taking it off. I also installed a pressure gage on my line so I can watch the pressure. Like Oxford said, IF I see and increase in pressure, I know my exchanger is full of scale. With the vales in place, I can also clean my Y strainers.

I read where they installed your pump on the return line. Those pumps are small and the theory was on a boiler they put the pump on the return line because that side had less heat and the pump would last longer. With your OWB you are pushing water back to the system with the pump but keep in mind that the feed side is higher so the water flow on the inlet side helps the pump pressure. Would this make a difference if the pump was on the inlet side? I’m not sure. Either way should work. Keep in mind that they were a suction pump. We had a small 007 pump sucking water up 18 ft to an old car radiator and it worked fine.

Your 20 plate exchanger should be more than enough to heat your home. You can flush the exchanger with an acid or like one person wrote last year, find a place that sells the chemical to clean commercial ice makers. It isn’t as harsh on the exchange and does a good job of cleaning the lime.

Oxford is right…. One thing at a time… Clean the Y screens and flush the exchanger. It might need to soak for a few days. Next summer flush the exchanger when the system is down for the season. Do you have soft water?


View attachment 214064View attachment 214064
 
Keep the 20 plate, clean and flush it, and see if your problems are solved. It bears repeating: THIS SYSTEM WORKED BEFORE.
Shut off the fill line to your indoor boiler, kill the power, drain it down. Break the HX piping loose from it and repipe with a bypass. Put it in bypass, start the indoor boiler so your house doesn't get cold. Break the OWB side free, drain as much as necessary. Soak it in ice machine cleaner (or vinegar, or Coke, or some other relatively mild acid) after you look inside it and see it limed solid. Change the solution as it becomes weaker, check with pH strips to verify initial strength and subsequent weakening. Once it's clean, reinstall as previously discussed, bleed the air on both sides, and your house will be warm, I'll bet. You are going to have to break out the pipe wrenches and head to the hardware store here pretty quick or this is just a thought exercise.

Good luck and get out your pipe wrenches.
 
So, what'd you end up doing...And did it solve your problems, mingom??
 
Sorry to have been MIA for so long, things have been a bit crazy with work and such. I had a 40 plate heat exchanger installed along with the fixes to the plumbing, I felt it was the best option at the time. Things do seem better, however I am still using some propane. It seems like the new hx works really well, my OWB temps sometimes drop down to 150-149 degrees from the 180 degree set point, I believe this shows a large heat draw from the house. I appreciate all the help, and would like to hear any comments or suggestions on why I am still using some propane. I'm going to be in contact with my boiler guy to ask the same this week.
 
Not to sound flippant, and I don't even have an OWB (or a hydronic heating system any more), but your LP system is kicking on because something is turning it on. That's probably one of two issues:

1. The aquastat is turning it on. You've got two sources of heat going into the furnace - the burner and the OWB HX. When the circulator runs you get a big shot of cold water returning from the radiators in the house. That cools off the water in the furnace reservoir. If the furnace doesn't "know" anything about the OWB, then it's supposed to heat that water up again. So if the heat output from the OWB isn't heating that up fast enough, the furnace will do it. I have no idea how OWB installations deal with that.

2. Hot water heating system controls generally turn the burner on as soon as the thermostat calls for heat, instead of just turning on the circulator and letting the aquastat run the burner. That's in anticipation of the big shot of cold water that will be on it's way.

Again, if the furnace doesn't "know" about the OWB HX that's been added, it will try to work as it was designed to. This is the problem with any of these "add-on" systems people tack onto their heating systems. It can certainly work well, but you'll need to learn how the existing system works inside and out before you can expect to fundamentally modify it's design with a second heat input.
 
I'm not sure I understand your post. The water from the OWB / HX gets transitioned into the heating system ahead of the LP burner, feeds through the burner, then to the house system. If the LP system sees a temp drop below its setpoint, then it fires. The same goes on the return side, the cool water cycles out to the HX, then back to the system. I appreciate everyone's input.
 

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