Another large oak with armillaria

[Ekka]

I see there's been some creative editing and post deletions.

Yes, best to make Muler look good not thick eh.

 

[Ed Roland]

When Ekka says "treat that area as follows. Soluable mixture of michorizal fungi, dash of urea, dash or glucose, dash of Silica (ah, the lost secret of plant panadol) and seasol/seaweed extract." I think he means the surrounding soil, NOT the tree itself and especially not the wound. Or did I read that wrong?

The area of root matter after the cut or the soil immediately surrounding the cut, Ekka?

Very interesting stuff guys.

"No drug is more ubiquitous than aspirin. Annually, Americans consume more than 16,000 tons of it. Yet, more than 200 years after aspirin was discovered in willow bark, investigators are only now figuring out why it has such a broad range of biological effects."


Ever get the feeling these guys can communicate at a different frequency, like dolphins?

 

[Ekka]

The area of root matter after the cut or the soil immediately surrounding the cut, Ekka?

Both.

 

[treeseer]

Ron I hope you have not been scared off. Did you get the 2nd assessment yet?

I would personally dig out the fruiting bodies and soil, go maybe 1' away from where they are and carefully (do this dry, no water) do this. Where the fruiting bodies are in contact with the tree parts I would carefully remove then treat that area

You would remove...what? soil? mushrooms? decayed wood? all3? what about wood that is infected but not decayed?

Soluable mixture of michorizal fungi, dash of urea, dash or glucose, dash of Silica (ah, the lost secret of plant panadol) and seasol/seaweed extract.

Do you have a source for this recipe?

 

[ATS/TexasTree]

Time to chime in a little here - this is what I observed yesterday.

The tree is a black jack oak (Quercus marilandica) - Age - 80 - 90+ years old.

As a specimen tree, it is truly one of the best I have ever seen in Central Texas. Very symmetrical, taller than most black jacks, well situated on the lot and provides important shade and aesthetics for the house.

This species of red oak is a notoriously poor compartmentalizer. As such, their average useful life span (safe life span) in the urban environment is in the 50 to 60 year range before they begin falling apart. (We usually remove these as hazard trees rather than dead trees.)

The tree has nice flares at grade with evidence of only a little fill soil - probably less than 2 inches.

The trunk has a necrotic area comprising approximately 1/3 of the circumference - missing bark, loose bark, begins at grade and goes up 3 to four feet on the trunk - I suspect girdling roots (or rocks) .

Less than 15% die back in the crown. Leaf size excellent as is leaf color.

Soils are well drained.

Owner reports no use of yard chemicals - no fertilizers, no "weed & feeds" - etc.

Very little if any supplemental irrigation.

Trenches under south side of canopy 20+ feet from trunk and over 25 years old for buried electric, phone.

No evidence of significant decay in the crown. Good branch attachment angles. Some old flush cuts callousing reasonably well. No fungal fruiting bodies in the crown.

My diagnosis - 2 possibilities - 1) likely girdling roots/ rocks - recommended a root collar/ root flare exam with an Airspade® to be followed with a coarse pruning of large deadwood and a fungicide treatment of the root zone - Or 2) it's quite possible that the tree is beginning the process of natural senescence. And even if that's the case, the root collar exam, etc. could help prolong the life of the tree.

I'll post any further findings should Mr. Ellis decide to hire our services.

 

[046]

now this is getting interesting with someone that's actually been on site, besides the home owner of course.

 

[S Mc]

ATS, since you do not mention armillaria, are we assuming you were able to confirm that it is not armillaria? That should be good news then!

Sylvia

 

[Ekka]

ATS, since you do not mention armillaria, are we assuming you were able to confirm that it is not armillaria? That should be good news then!

Sylvia

What would be the major difference between treating Armillaria or any other fungi?

Same principals apply.

 

[Ed Roland]

If your soil flora and fauna is in good health i.e. (a chemical free garden that has a certain amount of organic matter), then the Armillaria spores will reduce in quantity as they are eaten or degraded by the natural life in the soil.

Soluable mixture of michorizal fungi, dash of urea, dash or glucose, dash of Silica (ah, the lost secret of plant panadol) and seasol/seaweed extract.

Part of the reason this problem came about was due to the sterility of the environment beneath.

So this technique would do less harm to the living soil than a fungistat drench. Theres not one rated for Armillaria so, say, subdue for phytophthora.

"When a urea particle dissolves, the area around it becomes a zone of high pH and ammonia concentration. This zone can be quite toxic for a few hours. Seed and seedling roots within this zone can be killed by the free ammonia that has formed." University of Minnesota Extension

I assume this is Guy's contention?

http://grounds-mag.com/mag/grounds_maintenance_one_lump_two/
for simple information on simple sugar to decrease bare root transplant shock. Before leaving the lab I dipped many a bare root tree into the agar solution.

Just thinking out loud here. I am nowhere near the level you fella's operate @ so I am trying to wrap my mind around Eric's rec.

 

[S Mc]

What would be the major difference between treating Armillaria or any other fungi?

Same principals apply.

Armillaria is pathogenic, other fungi may or may not be. Therefore, one would be attacking the living tree while a saprophytic fungi would only be processing the dead wood. I would be reassured by a positive ID as to what exactly we were looking at, were it my tree, prior to any fungicidal application. Why apply a fungicide that would be harmful to beneficial microorganisms in the soil if that were not warranted?

The root crown excavation should show the extent of damage and decay and will help reaffirm a course of action.

Dirr's book states that the Quercus marilandica grows on infertile, barren soils, often sandy and are, in fact, a good indicator of soil quality. With the positive identification of this tree and that information, I would not recommend any fertilization.

I do tend to make mountains out of molehills when it comes to overfertilization (which I realize is not the case here) or application of pesticides. I feel we have become too complacent with their use and are doing more harm than good in many instances.

Thank you, ATS, for the update and I hope the homeowner keeps us apprised of future events as well.

Sylvia

 

[Ekka]

Why apply a fungicide that would be harmful to beneficial microorganisms in the soil if that were not warranted?

Where have I said apply a fungicide?

One of the few times things deviate for me here is treating phytophthera with phosphite, however I stem inject so the chemical is only in the tree and drench using the same above principal.

What the principal involves is boosting the trees defenses whilst antagonising the pathogenic fungi, it's always a win.

Urea, where did I say put it on the ground? A dash in a 10L watering can (teaspoon), it's potent N, you can also use any soluble fert high in N, occasionally I use a miracle grow product. The purpose of the N is not to fertilize the tree or condition the soil, it's purpose is to provide the beneficial fungi with N same as the glucose.

For trees I'd strongly recommend you dont drench fungicides, it kills the good and the bad.

If you have a severely infected area then perhaps go for it, drench, then over time work at rebuilding a decent soil.

 

[treevet]

Interesting read. Perhaps some ANSI standards will evolve relating to Armillaria and other reactions to fungal strategies of decay in trees. Conjecture is entertaining but......quite unscientific!

 

[Ekka]

Conjecture is entertaining but......quite unscientific!

The science is out there, find it!

 

[Ed Roland]

Interesting read. Perhaps some ANSI standards will evolve relating to Armillaria and other reactions to fungal strategies of decay in trees. Conjecture is entertaining but......quite unscientific!

but wait a sec

"Many farmers may thing that by adding inorganic fertilizers (NPK) to their
soils they are “feeding their plants”. In fact, as long as there is good soil
organic matter in the soil, inorganic fertilizers do not go to the plant directly,
rather 80-90% of the inorganic fertilizers are taken up into the life cycles of
the Soil Microbes as these microbes grow and multiply. Only when the
microbes die are the nutrients from their decomposing bodies broken back
down into small molecules and freed into the soil to be taken up by the plant
roots." http://www.communityipm.org/docs/Living Soils/Appendices.pdf

So the urea/glucose would increase populations of natural soil fungi in the inoculated areas. Armillaria is, arguably, a week competitor.

How weak a competitor is Armillaria in the soil? Could this recipe do more harm than good considering the wound?

Recently we went round and round about using Paclobutrazol as a companion treatment for BLS. The data is nebulous but it was pointed out by a poster "O and i'd used both. When the path to Best mgt practice is unclear we still have to do somtehing.

BMP = Best Means Possible"

I have trouble finding the hole in Ekka's rec.

 

[treevet]

The science is out there, find it!

Yeah, you are right of course. Never understood why this huge mass of books on arboriculture in my library have a bibliographies when, hey, they could have saved a lot of time and effort and just had the reader find the source of their information.:agree2: (or just take their word on it).

 

[Ekka]

Didn't know I was writing a book, thought this was a forum chat site......

Feed a man fish and he eats 1 day.

Teach a man to fish and ..... you know the story.

Ask yourself this question. What elements is it that fungi predominantly need to breed like rabbits?

Answer: Carbon and Nitrogen.

Have a look at what the script was for, and consider what each element is doing to the soil, fungi, tree etc.

Peddle back a few paces and think about what caused the problem in the first place. Mature tree, barren site, grass.

In cities trees often will not grow their true size or life expectancy due to a variety of negative constraints such as competing lawns, pollution, compacted soils, degraded soils, lack of soil microbial activity and beneficial fungi, lack of grafting with like species for additional resources, lack of shelter from other trees, herbicide damage, poor water management with changes to surface water run off and flow, hard landscapes intruding on root space etc. The list goes on and on, it is a truly an inhospitable environment for trees compared to natural forests.

The current environment tipped the scales to the bad guys dominating. To tip the scales to the good guys what has to be done? What is it the good guys need? And what is it the tree needs to contain the infection?

:computer:

 

[046]

ekka... thanks for sharing

 

[treevet]

Where have I said apply a fungicide?



Urea, where did I say put it on the ground? A dash in a 10L watering can (teaspoon), it's potent N, you can also use any soluble fert high in N, occasionally I use a miracle grow product. The purpose of the N is not to fertilize the tree or condition the soil, it's purpose is to provide the beneficial fungi with N same as the glucose.

For

Yeah, but come on, nourish the beneficials and the pathogenic fungi decline to partake. Also a dash of this and a pinch of that? Not the "dose and timing Shigo" expounds.

Got a fish on the line....tell me how (and when) to bring it in.

 

[jomoco]

I hate to be a stick in the mud here, but once a positive diagnosis of armillaria has been made, it is hard to ignore that no remedy will save that tree.

http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/r603100511.html

R&D on treatments is all very fine when the tree's failure has no targets, but this is obviously not the case here.

I have seen large apparently healthy vigorous oaks go over onto targets here in CA many times in my long career.

In my humble opinion you guys are playing with fire because the tree has multiple targets, including real live people.

The original diagnosis and removal recommendation is spot on in my opinion.

jomoco

 

[Nevic Donnelly]

Time to chime in a little here - this is what I observed yesterday.

The tree is a black jack oak (Quercus marilandica) - Age - 80 - 90+ years old.

I'll eat my hat if that is a Black Jack. Learn Yer Plants! From just the picture I'll tell you that that is a Post Oak (Q. Stellata). Ron is a co-worker of my ex-wife and so as a favor I will be going to sort this out later today. I may not post here again after this thread, so just for the record: I hate it on these sites when members do not include their civil name in their profiles.