any suggestions for a chimney liner?

[woojr]

Greetings to all who read this and thank you in advance for your comments...
I have a very old flueless fireplace chimney (100+years), about 25 ft. from stove outlet to top. Bout 16 inches square inside and for the last three decades I have used it with different stoves and different galvanized smokepipe liners (6-8 inch diameters).
After all these years I have decided to put in a 6" stainless liner and have been looking at the options. I burn only good quality, dry hardwoods (mostly oak, cherry, maple and persimmons.

My current choice is to go with solid 304 sections in 3 or 4 feet lengths. I like the smooth inside surface as oppose to a one piece flex liner. I am also wondering about adding insulation. I have never had a problem with the draft or chimney staying hot and once we start burning steady the old masonry chimney gently warms the middle of the house in an even way. I have never thought an insulated pipe was necessary but I am willing to listen.

Finally, the stove I am using is fairly small.. a two year old Phoenix Hearthstone. It seems to be just right for my space with only 40 some thousand BTU max its a frequent feeder when its cold-cold. I didn't use 50 gallons oil last year and still keep it in the 70's. Its a nice compromise as the primary heater and also a supplemental at times.

Any thoughts, from home made to deluxe stuff? Would I gain anything by wrapping some insulation around the liner? Thanks, John from southern N.J.

 

[mga]

the old masonry chimney gently warms the middle of the house in an even way. I have never thought an insulated pipe was necessary but I am willing to listen.

by this statement, i take it your chimney is in the center of the house and not on an outside wall....right?

reason i'm asking is because when i installed a new boiler, the town asked me the same question. my chimney is a double flued...meaning my boiler and my fireplace share the same chimeny but different flues. their point was that a chimney on an outside wall gets cold and has a harder time drafting than one located in the center of the house. so they said a liner would be required for that reason. but, since my chimney is located in the center of the house i didn't have to add any liner for the boiler. (this was suggested to meet new codes)

so.....two questions:

you also mentioned the liner you were thinking of is 6" in diameter. how much smaller is this going to be than the existing flue opening?

and, where is the chimney located?

 

[woojr]

The chimney is about 16" square inside and its located inside the house. I have a cover plate that seals the top of the chimney with the pipe going through and a cheapo cap on the top. Its at the peak of the house and nothing higher for hundreds of feet (a large tree).

The last 3 years I have used 6" galvanized smoke pipe and after inspection, I thought replacement with stainless steel would be a good idea. 6" is the stove manufacture's required size. And, after three heating seasons I would say I agree.

That said, I am looking at safety, ease of cleaning and never having to replace it again... (hope to spend colder months further south in 2-3 years).

John

 

[PA Plumber]

my chimney is a double flued...meaning my boiler and my fireplace share the same chimney but different flues.

Maybe I don't have a very good understanding of this, but if there are masonry flues and inside the brick chimney, then I believe your chimney is lined. Weren't the older brick chimneys just that, brick with nothing else?

 

[Chavez7]

for a liner, you have to go with stainless steel as anything else will not last. When you say "flue less" does that mean that it is unlined? Are there terra cotta tiles lining the chimney? If not, then according, at least to flex liner instructions, you need to insulate in order to meet code/listing. If cost is not an option, and if the chimney is straight, no doubt rigid pipe is the best option. Basically you're looking at rigid almost 2x the cost of flex. Check out chimneylinerinc.com - that's where I got my flex liner from - best price and nice knowledgeable staff

 

[woojr]

No tiles. Just bricks but its very thick (maybe double or triple courses) covered with a stucco like product and even has wallpaper over plaster in second floor. I used this chimney with the fireplace back in the early 70's until I installed a woodstove and ran the steel pipe up the chimney. This is a very old set up, perhaps back before the Cival War (first deed from 1830 something).
I will definitely check your link and appreciate the advice.... I'm not that far away from Philly, about 10 minutes from Com. Barry Br. in NJ. John

 

[mga]

Maybe I don't have a very good understanding of this, but if there are masonry flues and inside the brick chimney, then I believe your chimney is lined. Weren't the older brick chimneys just that, brick with nothing else?

ok...i should have explained it better. the chimney has two sets of clay tile flues in it, with the larger of them being for the fireplace. the chimney itself is like 3 feet by maybe 18 inches. the (unfinished) outside of the chimney is blocks. the finished part has bricks over the blocks...for cosmetics.

 

[PA Plumber]

ok...i should have explained it better. the chimney has two sets of clay tile flues in it, with the larger of them being for the fireplace. the chimney itself is like 3 feet by maybe 18 inches. the (unfinished) outside of the chimney is blocks. the finished part has bricks over the blocks...for cosmetics.

If those clay tiles are orange - terra cotta - I believe that is your liner. I recently removed my old morter crown and replaced it with a concrete one. I could post a couple of pics.

Old crown and liner

New crown

All the bricks on the top course were loose or bad, except two. There were two bricks on the 2nd course that needed remortered. Also, the top section of the left flue liner was cracked and had to be replaced. Two day job by myself. Yuck!!

 

[mga]

hey man...i think the same mason who built yours also built mine! LOL they look almost exactly the same.

my son made a stainless chimney cap that fits over the whole thing. i was going to buy one, but when i saw the prices of them i choked. so, since he does sheet metal work.........

 

[kd460]

There is nothing wrong with the flex liner. You will probably find that it is a better price than the smooth wall "flexable liner". It is more readily available and nicer to work with if you have to bend around the smoke shelf.

As far as size of pipe, what does the stove manual say? Chances are it is designed to be used for the 6 inch stuff, anything more (larger like current brick chimney) is going affect performance of your stove. Plus the flu gasses will cool faster and slower draw creating more creosote in your chimney.

Most manufacturers of flex liner REQUIRE insulation to meet the spec/ul listing, and you will notice better stove performance and ALLOT less need for chimney (liner) cleaning.

You should also install a block off plate at the bottom of the chimney run to close off the big chimney cavity. Your wasting (losing) heat up that cavity. Just a piece of sheet metal is all that is needed.

Best bet is flex liner kits on ebay. They are (should be-you need to check) 316-ti (stainless with titanium) and are perfect for what you need.

I have run my insert (flex liner) with and without insulation and I will never run it again without. KD

 

[Chavez7]

Without tiles, it's technically an unlined chimney which means you're going to need to insulate to meet code/listing. I would go for a flex liner just in terms of cost effectiveness. Insulation adds another $200. KD460 is right, nothing wrong with flex - it's what I have and what stove shops use as default. If you're looking to migrate south in a couple years, best to do everything up to spec in order to prevent issues with the sale - not to mention benefiting yourself from the added safety between now and then!

As for me, I'm in the NW suburbs of Philly, about 20 miles out.

 

[woojr]

Great advice Chavez7. Only I am not selling out in two years just hope for wintering over in Fla or somewhere warmer... I like our area (Pa mountains is a favorite)... in what is still somewhat farmland. Near Cowtown if that rings a bell.
One other consideration I am now entertaining is putting in a larger stove so I can leave it for longer periods of time and sleep through the night in January. That's not a big deal though since the bladder has needs along the same time as the stove. So maybe a larger pipe would be needed... anyway I have some decisions to make but you have cleared up the insulation issue.

Thank you, John

 

[Chavez7]

you're welcome John. I don't really know south jersey at all other than the shore - Ocean City is the family favorite. Best wishes with everything!

 

[kd460]

"So maybe a larger pipe would be needed... "

woojr, you really should stick with the size of flu pipe the manufacturer of your stove calls for. Bad idea going with larger pipe if say your stove calls for 6 inch and you decide to use say 8 inch.
kd

 

[woojr]

Thank you for the offer, however I ordered one from Rockford on Friday. At $430 shipped, they have a very nice product with upper plate and cap that sold me. Price wasn't the best but I liked their Ebay feedback and will let everyone know how I made out with the whole affair at a later date. Hasn't arrived yet. I am going to insulate.

Thanks again, John

 

[cruzer]

Guys great information! I will be installing a wood stove/insert in my fire place sometime in the next 2 years. House/chimney was built in 1806 so it's unlined and will need a liner when the time comes.


Stew

 

[woojr]

Just an update on my chimney liner installation. I liked the top end clamping and hanging plate and the flex pipe itself was solid and appears like it will last leak free for longer than I will need it. I do think that if I had it to do over I would have installed smooth solid sections. The flex pipe really isn't easily shaped and to say its a nice straight run up my old 25 footer would be a lie.
The one problem I had was the cleanout cap is two pieces and spotwelded in a few locations and it fell apart without even getting it to the installation stage. I wrote the seller and really didn't get a good answer considering they sold many of these and if they fall off in service could at least create a very smokey house. I put my old steel cleanout on the bottom and will address the SS one when I get to it in the winter.

So, when it stops being summer here in S Jersey, I'll fire it up.... take care

 

[kd460]

Well, I say fire that baby up! If you get a good draw in warm weather, then your gonna get better draw when it's cold.

Probably a good idea to do a "trial run" during the day when your home, so you can keep an eye on things. Probably will not run in to any problems, but, better to be awake and observing then to be asleep and have something "happen".

Sorry to hear the dealer you purchased your supplies from was less than accommodating. Maybe you can get someone to tack weld it back together.

I still think you should do a block off plate at the bottom of the chimney run as well, or at least plug things up with kaowool or similiar. Just don't use fiberglass insulation (like I have read people suggest here before) it is not the right stuff to use in a high heat situation like a wood burner, chimney, etc.

Good luck with it, remeber, you can never have enough wood either, time to put the scrounge on KD

 

[woojr]

I just found this 14 year old thread I started. Well I am reporting back on the chimney liner. It's still in operation without any holes or leaks. I never put any insulation around the 6" flex pipe. After all these years (I used it every year as a full time burner), I cleaned the chimney once or twice a season. One thing of interest is where the soot & creosote builds up. It builds up in the top 6 feet and in the cap. This is obviously the coldest part of the chimney. Well I'm no longer able to climb up to the top of the chimney and I'm going to try cleaning it with a drain snake. I think the end spinning slowly will knock most of the crusty stuff down the pipe. I'm also looking at how to modify the stove to burn coal.