Anybody charging by the (chainsaw) tank?

[earache]

Instead of charging per hour or per cord, it is many times easier and more preferred.

For production(piece) work. Cutting and bunching.

If so, how much?

 

[Gologit]

Instead of charging per hour or per cord, it is many times easier and more preferred.

For production(piece) work. Cutting and bunching.

If so, how much?

I've never heard of charging "by the tank". What would be the advantage to you or the people you're cutting for? Can't quite figure that one out.

I've worked by the foot, by the day, by the ton, flat rate and sometimes free of charge...but never by the tank. I don't know anybody who has, either.

Try it...let us know how it works out for you. Take some pictures. Maybe you'll start a trend.

 

[indiansprings]

Nope, never heard of it. Can't imagine doing it that way.

 

[2dogs]

Never. It is probably a higher tech way of losing money.

 

[Samlock]

I've never charged by the tank, but I use "tank" sometimes as a measuring tool in order to calculate my charge. I know by the looks of a tree how many tanks falling and bucking it will probably take. Helps me in cases there is only few (easy) trees to handle. I simply convert "tanks" to money and tell it to a client.

Also the concept of tank helps with busheling. I estimate the volume of timber by DBH and height. There is knotty forests and not so knotty. By the looks of an average tree I know how many tanks it takes to cut a given volume of timber. And I know how many tanks I run per day, so it gives me an idea how much do I want per unit.

Usually charging is not that simple. But the tank is anyway a good tool for a quick estimation.

For your information, my tank (including taxes) costs about 40 €/55 USD. If I would pop in America to take care of a tree or two, I'd charge for kilometers (0,45€/0,62 USD / kilometer) as well.

A bargain, yes?

 

[coastalfaller]

Same with me too, haven't heard of it. When I'm walking a stand of timber to figure out my price for the falling, I'll sometimes estimate how many trees my guys will fall/tank on average. I then multiply that by the average volume/stem to get my production/tank. You can then multiply that by the number of tanks in a day to get your guesstimate for production. Usually get pretty close.

 

[bullbuck]

we were lopping brush one day,and the bossman brought up a story of a guy who was caught just over the ridge laying flatout on his back with his saw beside him pulling the trigger as needed to try to fool the crew,this tactic did not work,nor did his employment last...this is an extreme case,but thats what i thought of when you said by the tank...if you bustass and your employer knows it,i wouldnt see why your employer would disagree with paying by the tank.

 

[Dalmatian90]

It's easy to measure and argue and re-measure wood delivered at the end of the day.

Hours we're pretty used to measuring too. Chainsaws I would think it's pretty hard to fake it...not like you can take a nap out of sight while still having the saw sound like it's working. Maybe clearing brush like bullbuck's last example (although I'd love to know if it sounded "off" to the foreman!)...but seems to me in timber you'll have to hear trees falling and saws lugging down cutting the trunks. I'm just an amateur at all this, but I can tell the difference between my neighbors who run Stihls and the run who runs a Dolmar...sounds tell you a lot.

Not much you can do to prove someone's not popping the cap and pouring out fuel.

 

[bullbuck]

It's easy to measure and argue and re-measure wood delivered at the end of the day.

Hours we're pretty used to measuring too. Chainsaws I would think it's pretty hard to fake it...not like you can take a nap out of sight while still having the saw sound like it's working. Maybe clearing brush like bullbuck's last example (although I'd love to know if it sounded "off" to the foreman!)...but seems to me in timber you'll have to hear trees falling and saws lugging down cutting the trunks. I'm just an amateur at all this, but I can tell the difference between my neighbors who run Stihls and the run who runs a Dolmar...sounds tell you a lot.

Not much you can do to prove someone's not popping the cap and pouring out fuel.

we dont have foremen here,they are called bossmen...no unions here friend:msp_smile:

 

[hammerlogging]

Not much you can do to prove someone's not popping the cap and pouring out fuel.

Thats it.

 

[earache]

I have spoken to a few different contractors that have/do charge by the tank in certain situations. Pertaining to these, but not limited to;
Doing subcontracting work when another crew is on the job
Multi-species(where rate differs)
Small stand, or when the sub won't have alot of production(maybe between jobs)
Times when it isn't necessary for the subcontractor to bring his forwarder/skidder
These are just some examples. In some situations, a sub charging by the tank can make things SOOOO much easier for billing for both the sub and the buyer/producer. The biggest time saver is in the forwarding and sorting of the wood. If it all needs to be marked and separated, the sub pays more for forwarding. The contractor that I am subbing on with sideloads all of their own trailers with the forwarder, so sorting would be so time consuming there wouldn't be anything left for the sub.
It can work out good with both parties being trustworthy.
I was curious who/where else this was ever practiced.

 

[tlandrum]

if im getting paid buy the tank ,hell i want an 880 or a 3120 they get reall poor fuel economy so i should be able to make bank... right??:spam:

 

[hammerlogging]

or dog a 460 into big timber and then the balance will go off too- I find the right saw for the right timber will get the best fuel economy.

But, as the OP is discussing, and had been agreed upon more or less, I too regularly gauge my day by my fuel burnt. Lots of others do too. But it is affected by terrain, density, avg dbh, prescription, etc., so it would vary just like $/mbf varies witht the strip if it came down to charging by the tank.

 

[Gologit]

Charging by the tank

I've been thinking about this and I just don't see how it would work for me.

Too many variables.

If I'm pioneering a new haul road with the Cat my fuel usage will be a lot higher than when I'm skidding logs on some easy downhill pull. It's easier for me, and for the people I work for, to pay a set rate per hour. The total operating costs are more predictable and easier to figure . I have a pretty good idea what it costs to operate the Cat and if my hourly or daily rate doesn't exceed my operating costs by a certain percentage I can either negotiate the rate or give the job a good leaving alone. This is done before I ever start a job.

If I'm falling I need to know how many bf I'm getting on the ground. Fuel usage for a saw isn't accurate enough to base job costs on...not for the volume of timber we usually work with.

I can see where, on some little podunk job, you might be able to charge by the tank and get away with it. But...theres a lot more costs than just fuel and your "cost per tank" had better be real high.

 

[hammerlogging]

Right now I'm cutting more moderate ground and a higher avg. dbh and my fuel consumption has gone up by 25-50%. #### those 100% slopes. I'd rather keep filling up the saw.

BTW, the mini gypos on the belt (20 oz. fuel gatorade jug, 12 oz bar oil grapefruit juice bottle) has given me I bet 10 more stems a day compared to being more tied to the mother jug. More freedom to roam further from the jug, less walking time, etc. Best is to fill up while your in your back cut. Oh yeah, an you can really run your tank out (nearly) every (other) tank full since you have fuel on your person. Freedom from the jug.

 

[Gologit]

Neat. Do those Gatorade jugs degrade any from the gas? I'm always tinkering with mini-jugs for just the reasons you listed. LOL...I've had a couple of different ones that started to melt from the gas.

 

[hammerlogging]

The jugs seem to be holding up fine- the juice one might be only 8-10 oz., whatever, you'll know it when you see it, the gatorade one is the wider size single serving bottle. The gatorade lid began leaking soon, but the blue caps from the juice bottles seem to work well on both the bar oil bottle and the gatorade bottle. I have an old shoe lace with slip knots around each of the bottles and a loop in between that gets clipped to a carabiner on my tool belt.

 

[coastalfaller]

or dog a 460 into big timber and then the balance will go off too- I find the right saw for the right timber will get the best fuel economy.

But, as the OP is discussing, and had been agreed upon more or less, I too regularly gauge my day by my fuel burnt. Lots of others do too. But it is affected by terrain, density, avg dbh, prescription, etc., so it would vary just like $/mbf varies witht the strip if it came down to charging by the tank.

Bang on, Joe. On our current block, my guys are burning less fuel but getting more scale than our previous block. This one is a healthy white wood stand, very little limbs, not much rot, easy & quick bucking. The previous block was cedar, alot more limbing and long butting!

 

[bitzer]

Thats funny. I've been doing the same thing lately with the mini containers. I spent a lot of time searching when at different stores and finally settled on some 25-30oz. metal water bottles. They were in a two pack for like $7 or something. They have the plastic caps with a loop on top to hook a carabiner to that I tie my extra boot lace to for the sling. The fuel bottle I drilled a tiny hole through in the right spot for a vent. They've been holding up pretty well.

 

[ms290]

i have contemplated doing this for cutting cedar trees. ive never seen anything worse to cut than a cedar. i should do this too