Anyone else building log homes?

[demographic]

For the most part the windows and doors are left out as the logs are placed down. The open space on the long wall under the 32 foot log is for the front door, and the rear has 2 sets of french doors, so that is 12 feet of log, and would require quite a bit more.

The 32 foot logs going on the 2nd/3rd course (however it is counted, there's the sills) are being left full length to give the building good support once I get it back together after I ship it home.

And, funny you ask about the pins, normally it is not needed, but we are going to put pins in each of the dovetails so that when I reassemble it they will be put back as they are now.

This is the most incredible project I have taken on in my entire life. I will leave this home to my wife and kids after I am gone.

I have never worked with such big timbers like these pine logs, but it is great fitting them together. When a joint fits, it's magic! Watching a 3000# log being dropped in place and seeing the joint close up is really a thrill...

Regards,
TT

Great stuff, I hope to see many more photos of your project as it comes on.

Now over here it rains, quite a lot and I am wondering how you stop the wooden walls from getting the driving rain and it causing the timber to rot?
Do you make the roof with large overhanging eaves so the rain has very little chance to get the walls wet unless its driving almost horizontally?
I know the large overhanging eaves are good to keep the excess heat out of the building as it stops the summer sun from shining in too much but allows the (lower in the sky) winter sun in when its needed.

Also I assume that you place the bottoms of the walls on a damp proof membrane in order to stop damp rising from the ground?
What do you use for insulation? Do you have a gap between the external logs and internal classing or is it just the logs?


Sorry for the barrage of questions but I'm very interested now

 

[Metals406]

Great stuff, I hope to see many more photos of your project as it comes on.

Now over here it rains, quite a lot and I am wondering how you stop the wooden walls from getting the driving rain and it causing the timber to rot?
Do you make the roof with large overhanging eaves so the rain has very little chance to get the walls wet unless its driving almost horizontally?
I know the large overhanging eaves are good to keep the excess heat out of the building as it stops the summer sun from shining in too much but allows the (lower in the sky) winter sun in when its needed.

Also I assume that you place the bottoms of the walls on a damp proof membrane in order to stop damp rising from the ground?
What do you use for insulation? Do you have a gap between the external logs and internal classing or is it just the logs?


Sorry for the barrage of questions but I'm very interested now

I'll let him answer your questions too, and give some generalized answers as well.

I'll first address your questions about driven rain on the walls. Yes, overhangs help a great deal, but walls will still get wet, and bombarded with UV light... That's why it's very important to keep the logs sealed/treated with oil products or stain. Log structures are 3X's the maintenance of a stick framed structure.

Log ends (end grain) are the homes worst moisture wicking area (besides an improperly sealed sill). Untreated or improperly cared for log ends will suck in moisture, and begin to rot the log. There are many specialty restoration companies around the country, that make a very good living fixing log homes that have been neglected or improperly built. Those companies will often times have to replace a log in the middle of a wall, which is a very precise and expensive repair.

The sill log/timber should be sitting on a product called sill-seal (looks like packing wrap), or a rubber membrane. Improperly sealed sill logs will turn into a nightmare later.


SILL_SEAL

The gaps between the logs are filled with insulation, backing 'rod' and then chinked... More information about the process can be found here... http://www.permachink.com/

 

[landyboy]

Interesting project. A lifetime achievement.Theres a lot of timber framing locally, but its just a case of giving the plans to a timber firm who make up a series of stud walls which arrive on a truck.
These are put in place and a brick outer shell built around it. Drywall inside.

 

[TraditionalTool]

Metals406 pretty much gave the answers on the logs, the space will be filled with foam board (i.e., backer rod) and chinking will be placed on the outside.

Yes, log homes require quite a bit more maintenance than a stick frame home, they are wood homes for the most part and you have to be careful that bugs don't eat it, or that it doesn't rot. You must re-stain them every 5 or 6 years, similar to how you must paint your stick frame home or the eaves will rot from moisture.

It is a fascinating way to build, one that has been around for centuries, and one that is very organic and green. When done property they can last for a long, long time. Given neglect, they can rot away as quick as any other structure.

For people looking for low maintenance, cement and/or brick is a better solution. I just happen to like the look of timber much better, speaking for myself.

That said, I'm not a log craftsman, I only play one on the internet. I'm a software engineer who has been unemployed since January with enough cash in his pocket to pull something like this off... It's kinda like a mid-life crisis...but I'm well on my way to overcoming it!

Cheers,
TT

 

[Metals406]

It's kinda like a mid-life crisis...but I'm well on my way to overcoming it!

Cheers,
TT

Thank GAWD you chose this for you crisis instead of a mullet and a Camero!

 

[demographic]

I'll let him answer your questions too, and give some generalized answers as well.

I'll first address your questions about driven rain on the walls. Yes, overhangs help a great deal, but walls will still get wet, and bombarded with UV light... That's why it's very important to keep the logs sealed/treated with oil products or stain. Log structures are 3X's the maintenance of a stick framed structure.

Log ends (end grain) are the homes worst moisture wicking area (besides an improperly sealed sill). Untreated or improperly cared for log ends will suck in moisture, and begin to rot the log. There are many specialty restoration companies around the country, that make a very good living fixing log homes that have been neglected or improperly built. Those companies will often times have to replace a log in the middle of a wall, which is a very precise and expensive repair.

The sill log/timber should be sitting on a product called sill-seal (looks like packing wrap), or a rubber membrane. Improperly sealed sill logs will turn into a nightmare later.


SILL_SEAL

The gaps between the logs are filled with insulation, backing 'rod' and then chinked... More information about the process can be found here... http://www.permachink.com/

Great information there Metals, thanks for posting it.

Metals406 pretty much gave the answers on the logs, the space will be filled with foam board (i.e., backer rod) and chinking will be placed on the outside.

Yes, log homes require quite a bit more maintenance than a stick frame home, they are wood homes for the most part and you have to be careful that bugs don't eat it, or that it doesn't rot. You must re-stain them every 5 or 6 years, similar to how you must paint your stick frame home or the eaves will rot from moisture.

It is a fascinating way to build, one that has been around for centuries, and one that is very organic and green. When done property they can last for a long, long time. Given neglect, they can rot away as quick as any other structure.

For people looking for low maintenance, cement and/or brick is a better solution. I just happen to like the look of timber much better, speaking for myself.

That said, I'm not a log craftsman, I only play one on the internet. I'm a software engineer who has been unemployed since January with enough cash in his pocket to pull something like this off... It's kinda like a mid-life crisis...but I'm well on my way to overcoming it!

Cheers,
TT

I'm liking the build and if your going to have a mid life crisis your better having one that gives you something usable at the end of it, I have been into motorbikes since I was a kid and my fife and daughter were just discussing what on earth I would do for a mid life crisis last night, sportcars won't really cut it when I have a bike that can blow it into the weeds anyway.
Can't work out what to do...

Making something to pass onto your grandchildren is a way to imortality as the structure lasts when you are dust.
Good on you.

 

[TraditionalTool]

I'm liking the build and if your going to have a mid life crisis your better having one that gives you something usable at the end of it, I have been into motorbikes since I was a kid and my fife and daughter were just discussing what on earth I would do for a mid life crisis last night, sportcars won't really cut it when I have a bike that can blow it into the weeds anyway.
Can't work out what to do...

*LOL*

Yeah, I have a Porsche that I drive, so a sports car was already taken care of...

This is pretty extreme, but I've been planning for a long time, I have had my property for almost 10 years.

Making something to pass onto your grandchildren is a way to imortality as the structure lasts when you are dust.
Good on you.

That's how I figure. My kids will remember this for a long time after I'm gone, as will their kids, and their kids...this will not be just any home, this will be something that people remember after they see it.

Regards,
TT

 

[TraditionalTool]

An update on some progress...

I haven't updated this thread in a while...I found a lot to build my log home on, it's about 23 miles from my house. Needs some minor clean up. There is 57 feet between the fence and the trailer, but the landlord might let me move the trailer, that would be good. and give me another 16 feet. That is not figured out yet.

Then, I was able to find this forklift, and I'll take possession of it after the 1st when I move into the rental property.

This is a 2003 Cat 6k# lift, with sideshift and hydraulic fork movement (adjust fork width from cab), so it has a 4 handle control valve.

3 stage with full free lift and clear view. New tires, air in front and solid pneumatic in the rear for steering.

One really nice addition to this forklift is that it has a single/double fork assembly on it, which allows the forks to be adjusted from 28" - 84". That is controlled by the 4th handle on the valve. This will help to balance the timbers, IMO.

Could use a new seat though, but in general in good shape and will operate on the gravel/hardpack that is at the lot.

Oh, and lastly, I did pick up a used Husky 359 that I will use for bucking the ends of the timbers, and doing any aggressive cutting, to compliment the 336. :greenchainsaw:

It hasn't been 'snellerized' but has had the piston replaced, and shows good compression. It has an unlmited coil and Brad fixed up the air flow with the cat converter! *lol* (special Cali e-tech version ). I'm going to run .325" pitch narrow kerf chain on it. Cutting pine.

 

[Metals406]

Looks like a fine machine to assist you in the build!

 

[TraditionalTool]

Looks like a fine machine to assist you in the build!

Yes, I hope so!

For the first time I'm feeling like there could be some light at the end of the tunnel and that I can turn this dream into a reality.

I'm getting near the end of budget that I will invest for the time being. I have most of what I need to finish the shell...will need to buy a couple more tools, but I'm there for the most part, 'cept for a couple levels, and a framing square. I have some other funds that I have been reserving to use for the foundation and preparing the lot. In the meantime I can focus on the shell (and look for a job;-). This will be turned into my full time hobby. I'll be able to get to it in 20 minutes. So, I can work during the week or weekends, depending on how work pans out. I really feel like I have accomplished something while being out of work though...and I'm certain that when I pull this off, my wife and kids will forever remember me building it.

Regards,
TT

PS - This has been one heck of a learning experience. I will forever be in debt to Tim Bullock for teaching me how to work with these type of timbers. It's not often such a great craftsman is willing to do so...and it's the first time he's ever tried doing it.

 

[Metals406]

Yes, I hope so!

For the first time I'm feeling like there could be some light at the end of the tunnel and that I can turn this dream into a reality.

I'm getting near the end of budget that I will invest for the time being. I have most of what I need to finish the shell...will need to buy a couple more tools, but I'm there for the most part, 'cept for a couple levels, and a framing square. I have some other funds that I have been reserving to use for the foundation and preparing the lot. In the meantime I can focus on the shell (and look for a job;-). This will be turned into my full time hobby. I'll be able to get to it in 20 minutes. So, I can work during the week or weekends, depending on how work pans out. I really feel like I have accomplished something while being out of work though...and I'm certain that when I pull this off, my wife and kids will forever remember me building it.

Regards,
TT

PS - This has been one heck of a learning experience. I will forever be in debt to Tim Bullock for teaching me how to work with these type of timbers. It's not often such a great craftsman is willing to do so...and it's the first time he's ever tried doing it.

I can't remember if you said you were going to do a full basement or not?.. If not, you should look into doing a Frost Protected Shallow Foundation (or FPSF)... It'll save you money. The challenge would be to get it approved by the county as a viable foundation... FPSF's are a newer concept in the US--but they have been used for years over in Europe.

Google FPSF's, and you can read more on them.

 

[TraditionalTool]

I can't remember if you said you were going to do a full basement or not?.. If not, you should look into doing a Frost Protected Shallow Foundation (or FPSF)... It'll save you money. The challenge would be to get it approved by the county as a viable foundation... FPSF's are a newer concept in the US--but they have been used for years over in Europe.

Google FPSF's, and you can read more on them.

Yeah, I am doing a full walkout. There's a couple sets of french doors on the walkout side, and the basement is split down the center. Half is livable space with bed/ba, and the other half will be my shop to build the house. Actually, the entire basement will be the shop to build the house and the bed/ba in the basement will be the last thing to complete.

I was looking at ICFs the past couple weeks, and went to meet a guy at the PCBC show last week. I did pick up a Little Giant 22 foot ladder when I was there...

 

[Metals406]

Yeah, I am doing a full walkout. There's a couple sets of french doors on the walkout side, and the basement is split down the center. Half is livable space with bed/ba, and the other half will be my shop to build the house. Actually, the entire basement will be the shop to build the house and the bed/ba in the basement will be the last thing to complete.

I was looking at ICFs the past couple weeks, and went to meet a guy at the PCBC show last week. I did pick up a Little Giant 22 foot ladder when I was there...

ICF's are very good... You get a real nice R Value out'a your wall, and anyone can install them... They're like Lego's.

 

[TraditionalTool]

ICF's are very good... You get a real nice R Value out'a your wall, and anyone can install them... They're like Lego's.

Yeah, I've seen some that folks have used and it looks pretty easy, but still requires getting the footers and slab for the basement poured. In that regard it seems marginal to add the poured walls.

Where the ICFs seem to give a big advantage is in offering a basement that doesn't need a vapor barrier and the firring strips go right on the foam. I was quoted about $3500 in materials for the ICFs that would be needed for the foundation.

Most of the contractors I talk to say to go with a traditional poured foundation, and get the cement folks to setup the forms. I have some time to ponder over it. Have you used ICFs in the past?

Regards,
TT

 

[Metals406]

Yeah, I've seen some that folks have used and it looks pretty easy, but still requires getting the footers and slab for the basement poured. In that regard it seems marginal to add the poured walls.

Where the ICFs seem to give a big advantage is in offering a basement that doesn't need a vapor barrier and the firring strips go right on the foam. I was quoted about $3500 in materials for the ICFs that would be needed for the foundation.

Most of the contractors I talk to say to go with a traditional poured foundation, and get the cement folks to setup the forms. I have some time to ponder over it. Have you used ICFs in the past?

Regards,
TT

Yes, I have used ICF's... They're very popular up here for the reasons you mentioned and more... We have some pretty cold and snowy winters.

 

[lngbeard]

Alternative method.

I found the LHBA (Log Home Builders Association) web site several years ago and have become a convert from traditional "kit" type log building methods. The Butt and pass method does not suffer from the usual issues that other log home build methods do. Example being "settling" that requires keying of doorways and windows. Butt and pass does not settle. If anyone intends on building a log home, I would highly encourage looking into using this method and taking their two day class. As a note of interest, the class is held in the log home used on the TV show "Northern Exposure". http://www.loghomebuilders.org/

 

[TraditionalTool]

I found the LHBA (Log Home Builders Association) web site several years ago and have become a convert from traditional "kit" type log building methods. The Butt and pass method does not suffer from the usual issues that other log home build methods do. Example being "settling" that requires keying of doorways and windows. Butt and pass does not settle. If anyone intends on building a log home, I would highly encourage looking into using this method and taking their two day class. As a note of interest, the class is held in the log home used on the TV show "Northern Exposure". http://www.loghomebuilders.org/

I'm very familiar with the way Skip Elsworth taught folks to build, and very familiar how he had taken cheap shots at most of the decent builders, before he passed. Now his son continues to do the same. The truth is that their style doesn't hold a candle to some of the quality handcrafted log homes being built.

Truth be told that what he taught was nothing like I am building. I am building a real log home that has the corners cut by hand to join the timbers with dovetails. I am not pounding in rebar every 2 feet to hold the logs together, the pure weight of the logs will do that on their own.

This is not to dis Skip's style, but Skip was the one dissing most styles other than the crap he taught people how to build. And his homes are truly a pile of crap compared to a home like this. The craftsman that taught me how to do this hates the style that Skip taught people to build, and felt SkipE was a swindling crook, taking people's money and filling them with trash information.

You might notice that the logs I'm using have the cambium taken off, something that Skip never recommended, touting how the logs would last longer. Also, while I will be putting chinking between my logs, I will use modern synthetic chinking material, unlike the cement/mortar that Skip recommended using because it was cheap.

Of course I'm building a real foundation for my home, not putting the logs on the ground as many of Skip's homes were done. I am using sills and stacking the logs as they should be.

Why is it that the LHBA web site bans people for asking question about certification? Why is it that the folks that run their "cult" program, do not let any government employees to take their course? Why is it that the LHBA has so much SPAM about other builders on their web site? All of this paranoia about how the world is out to get Elsworth is a crock of $#!T.

My conclusion is that they have something to hide. No matter if people build homes in that style, so be it. It will be theirs at the end of the day, not mine.

I have seen the homes they advocate and some don't look too bad, but they are poorly designed with elements that will cause rot and problems for the homeowners down the line, not to mention they use mortar to fill in where the craftsmanship leaves off...mortar/cement wicks water into the logs. That's a horrible solution. Of course the alternative of using quality modern chinking is cost prohibitive on a SkipE home, because they require so much of it, and not to mention they advocate getting materials for free. People don't give away modern chinking these days...

Regards,
TT

 

[TraditionalTool]

Butt and pass does not settle.

That is a bunch of hogwash...any home built out of logs will settle, period.

SkipE homes don't settle, because they are essentially suspended by rebar, however the logs will shrink and as such will pull away from the garbage mortar SkipE recommended as chinking material.

All wood changes with climate, even if it is cut down and dead, the environment will change the wood as time moves along...it is the nature of the beast, if that is an attribute that one doesn't like, log homes are most likely not for them.

It is simple to build for shinkage, but the fact is that most folks that build SkipE homes don't do it and/or account for it in most cases.

Regards,
TT

 

[SINGLE-JACK]

My (designed & built) Log Home

 

[lngbeard]

Log home

C'mon TT, tell us how you really feel
I agree Skip was a eccentric guy with a political agenda. I do however, respectfully disagree with some of your statements: I have seen many examples of his building style in person and found them not to be "a pile of cra#". They range from simple designs to elaborate. They do not settle and do not require any of the special keying or jacking of the more traditional build methods. Yes, logs shrink around their centers and chinking may or may not require touch up. Skips own house has not had chinking redone and the gap is less than a knife blade thickness. There is no apparent water intrusion or damage. The reason given for the mortar chinking in addition to being inexpensive was to allow some air transfer which in turn keeps moisture from accumulating. I have not seen any of Skips style of homes built on the ground and they do not recommend this practice. They teach a pier block system with a minimum of 18" of ground clearance. This keeps insects and ground moisture away. I disagree with the notion that the design invites rot. The extended eves and gable ends protect the logs from rain water damage.
These houses can be built by the average person very inexpensively and avoid the 30 mortgage if one is so inclined. They also can be intricate and up scale if one so wishes. If one cares to look at the pictures of the student built homes at the LHBA web site this become apparent. One of Skip's teachings that make many see red is that once a log is turned to a consistent diameter for it's full length it is no longer a log, it's a tinker toy. A log that is milled square or rectangular is also no longer a log any more than a 2x4 is a log. The square or rectangular shape creates a "flat on flat " condition which create a capillary effect which draws water into the joint. I am not selling anything here. Just presenting a alternative. I believe in it and have it graphically shown to me why it can be of superior durability and economy.