Bowline mindblock

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Originally posted by MasterBlaster
Hey, I spent 4 yrs on an aircraft carrier and I never had to learn any knots!

That's because you spent the whple time in charge of refilling vending machines:D

Semper Fi, Do or Die, Ooo Rah, Ooo Rah where's my beer?

SEAL not knowing knots makes me wonder, I knew a few of those guys, and ForceRecon types (I woulda, but I've always puked when I run:eek: ) They wern't all ropeaholics, but they knew the basics for rocks and lashing up a small boat.
 
He said that he learned enough to get signed off on stuff, and then he instantly forgot it. He didn't become a seal though. I think he wound up doing underwater welding or something. Very task oriented.
 
A few years ago I took a twelve day mountaineering class from the American Alpine Institute in WA. Our guide told us that AAI contracted with the armed forces to put some of thier spec ops teams through the classes. Ely said that the guys weren't all that good technically but there was nothing that they couldn't do. He had a lot of respect for the way that they worked together. He said that he would have like to have a couple of them on big expeditions to haul gear and get things done. He knew that he could count on any of them if the chips were down.

Why not ask the Seal why he doesn't know knots. Let us know what you find out.

Tom
 
What happens if the rabbit runs around the tree the wrong way?

I happened to be helping with some water rescue training last night with the Fire Dept, one of the guys I was helping with knots was a lefty, no mater what / how we tried his rabbit would run around the tree the wrong way. From What I understand this creates a bowline variation (Dutch or cowboy bowline) that is strength compromised.

Also it takes a close look to pick up the variation, my basis for preference to teach a double 8 for live loads.

I took a few minutes with him to demo tieing the knot backwards, upside-down, and left handed, once I did this the guy picked up quick. Many people just learn and compleate the same task differently.

Brian
 
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Originally posted by Tom Dunlap
. He said that he would have like to have a couple of them on big expeditions to haul gear and get things done. He knew that he could count on any of them if the chips were down

Hey there is a job title for the former military person "proffesional pack mule".D)
 
knothead.gif




I worked with these 'groundman' today - put it this way, I didn't lose $20.:angry:
 
i like "Brush Pilot", my other terms are "Ground Control'' or "Pit Crew", to answer one of Tom's questions.

i think that sending the rabbit the wrong way around the tree places the tail outside the bowline eye. If we are talking about the same thing; my understanding is that strength isn't affected but security. i was taught (and have read); that on shipping docks, when using the bowline; if the end (or toggle) rubs briskly against something, it can invert the knot, and the load falls, many times killing workers below. So the toggle/end is safer exiting the knot inside the loop where it is protected from this danger.

i make the bowline with the slipknot method; using that method, it is a lot easier to see how the knot could invert and release. It has also been called the climber's method of making a bowline; faavoured at one time for rescuing people off the sides of shear cliffs by lowering a line.

In the regular way to make a bowline, the rabbit goes up the hole, around the tree, then back down the hole to home. In a slip knot method, you make your half hitch (hole) and pull the tree (bight from standing end jus on other side of 'hole') down the hole and the rabbit crosses behind the tree, then the tree is pulled back up the hole. Either way is good.

i favour the slip knot method because i make a double ring/round turn/double bolwine, and find the 2 rings easier to handle and set with this method. i believe that 2nd ring has been shown to be as strong as an '8'; easier to tie, easier to untie and takes less line to make and less 'bulk' at connection.

With the yosemite tie off, the security is raised even more, the loose end isn't cluttering the inside of the temporary eye that is made with the bowline. This also (IMLHO); makes the knot more symetrical; easier to spot check in my mind. i take the hint of that utility value (easy id) from a reason mountain/rescue have stuck with the 8; is it is easeir to 'buddy check' being a clean/symetrical, easy to check shape. This double bowline with Yosebite tie off, i beleive is the superior form of the bowline for strength, security, ease of tie/untie. This too, can be tied behind the back. It also has a nice stop of spot,thaqt you can put the knot on 'hold' halfway through making it (right before performing the loop that makes the eye); addding extra utility to ease of making it.

Fer those that are unsure, i'd extend JP's just make a list of half hitches, to an olde, secure standard a round turn and 2 half hitches? The strength would depend on what you were hitching to, any uneasiness about security; tuck the end after the half hitches, under the first wrap that takes load. In this way the position that is free-est with no pressure on it; gets locked into having the mainline pressure on it; so the load stands on it's own 'bootstrap'; and is so likewise locked into that un beatable cycle of the most pressure of line locking down on most secured point (needing least pressure, yet getting max).
 
left handed

Whenever I come across a groundman who is left handed and is having a hard time tieing knots properly, I have found it is alott easier for me to tie them left handed for him to see. I already know the knot so its easier for me to make the switch then asking him to see it tied right handed, convert it to left handed in his head, then tie it. All my guys know their knotts, when In was at Asplundh and Davey you had to in order to pass inspection.
 
Dang, I can never get a word in these things in time to stay on track, oh well, I spend a great deal of time working with my groundmen, and thats what they're called. The two I have now can maintain the chipper, sorty of learning to sharpen the saws, tie a bowline, clove, timber,cow hitch, figure-8,french prusik, klemheist, set up a Z-pulley set static lines in trees before, my primadona climbers even have they're saddles on they are starting to get they're weight estimates down learning to recognize when to set a retreviable block etc. Maybe the mistake that we often make is looking at the ground position only as a stepping stone to the grand world of climbing instead of focusing on the fact that a skilled groundman is every bit as valuable as a climber.By the way these two guys have only been on the crew for 90 days
 
groundies

just to hark back,

in our squad we have,

boss, climber high heidgen,
lead climber
disabled groundman (badly dislocated shoulder means he can no longer climb, not that he really did, but it was all before my time with them)
me....trainee climber
machineman/groundman
groundman

we all send things up to the climber, tie pullinjg ropes, operate some of the machines, (to a greater or lesser extent...im only allowed at a few), check sharpen etc the saws and are all able to talk to the public as we are all educated (apart from the machineman) to some degree in arboriculture and tree care, we can also bluff our way out of situations as well.

why is that tree being removed???? 'it is diseased and suffering dieback and is a public saftey issue' sounds better than. 'wait i'll just ask the boss who is at the top of the tree and busy sectioning it as we speak'. the person walks off happy and we get on with the job in hand..... chances are the tree was a saftey concern though....

oh and the climber is totty spotter as well.....not that we perv on the lovely ladies or anything :D

cheers

jamie
 

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