Breaking into the biz...part-time?!?

[chile verde]

Hey all,

First off, I need to thank everyone for the past several weeks of tips, suggestions, and entertainment, despite the fact I've only been lurking and gleaning what I may from other folks' questions! I've searched high and low for similar threads to the one you're reading now...some similar hits, but by and large my situation is somewhat unconventional.

I REALLY want to learn a new set of ropes, specifically those of the professional arborist. Will I ever become a fulltime arborist? I can see that happening, given how much enjoyment I get out of being outdoors AND perched high above the ground...but short-term I have other motivations:

1. I've already taken down plenty of trees on my property, mostly Tree of Heaven (do these even qualify?), Siberian elm, and other junk trees which impede my various construction projects. I've got a couple of monster elms which need make-overs, and I recognize I'm at the limit of what a single dude with an 18v sawzall, a cheap-o 16" AC electric chainsaw, an arsenal of climbing gear and non-experiencial knowledge can accomplish. The professional quotes for the trees are all in the $2-4k range, depending upon neighborly accessibility. I am NOT merely a skinflint trying to get this done cheap: I see this as a great economic excuse to act upon a lifelong compulsion, and as you'll hopefully see, I've given this a lot of thought.

2. I've recently acquired a woodstove to help heat our house, and cords here in semi-rural NM start ~$180 for pinyon. Ouch. If I can feed both my need for a stimulating and productive hobby, as well as heat our adobe walls...why not? Especially after last winter's gas shortage, and this winter's looking no better (local horses were putting on their winter coats back in August...never a good sign!).

3. A perusal of the Tree Climber's Companion has revealed that I already possess about 70% of the ropes/rigging/safety knowledge, and at least 50% of the gear. I've been an avid rockclimber and caver for over 10 years, have taught these through both university programs and informally, as well as facilitating at a ropes course for 5 years. Whether you're calling it a cow's tail, lobster claw, lanyard, or a tether, you need two of em attached to bomber anchors at all times and I'm already quite used to evolving both my vocab and technique with each new discipline. I'm also extremely calm and comfortable in situations which'd empty most folks' bladders, and am a very fast learner. I'm strong and quite agile...which helps. I'm also WFR certified so I'm even somewhat qualified to stabilize victims until an ambulance arrives...

I'm really fortunate to have a rewarding 40 hr/wk lab gig with modest pay, decent benefits and lots of time off. Unfortunately, it seems to me that having a regular job complicates the typical (?) groundie-up apprenticeship ritual. Just how realistic would I be to solicit my local companies for weekend groundie work, considering my motivations are to acquire: 1. working knowledge of a new and exciting approach to my childhood passion, 2. free firewood, and 3. additional skills to further both my future hireability, and personal satisfaction?

The tradeoff being I'm already experienced in nearly every roped discipline save circus carnie and arborist (beyond my amateur hybrid caver/climber SRT), used to following safety protocols, own my own gear, etc...BUT my availability is limited, and a segue into fulltime status is not necessarily in the cards.

If you were me, how would you market yourself? Is the weekend climber even a viable niche?

 

[superjunior]

get a job with a tree service and learn from the ground up my friend

 

[Saw Dust Smoken]

working the biz

Yes dragging brush is not glamourous. But its a starting point. Work some wkends with other workers\climbers. You will pick up helpfull hint as to what works or not. The more people your around. The more climbing info\styles you will be exposed to. Does your area have a rec climbing club? There is several forums to look thru. Good luck!!

 

[Iustinian]

It should be fairly easy to get in part-time with a tree crew. I wouldnt tell them that you are planning on starting your own business though, or they may not be interested in working with you at all. Who knows though. Tell them that you have lots of climbing experience and that you want to apply it to arboriculture and develop your skills as a climber. Probably wouldn't hurt to tell them that you are also looking for a firewood resource (as a way to explain why you're only looking for part-time at the moment) and get yourself a little one-ton dump truck to haul it with, you can find those cheap. Then see how you feel about it after you've tried that. good luck

 

[chile verde]

Thanks all for the encouragement!

Iustinian, I think you're absolutely right, the free firewood aspect will be a simpler motive to explain than all the rest.

Are weekends more, or less, busy than weekdays? How useful a niche would I be filling for the typical company? What're typical starting wages like for novices?

 

[lxt]

Hey all,

First off,

1. I've already taken down plenty of trees on my propert, I've got a couple of monster elms which need make-overs, I'm at the limit of what a single dude with an 18v sawzall, a cheap-o 16" AC electric chainsaw, I am NOT merely a skinflint trying to get this done cheap:


2. I've recently acquired a woodstove to help heat our house,

3. A perusal of the Tree Climber's Companion has revealed that I already possess about 70% of the ropes/rigging/safety knowledge, and at least 50% of the gear.

I've been an avid rockclimber and caver for over 10 years, have taught these through both university programs and informally, as well as facilitating at a ropes course for 5 years.

Whether you're calling it a cow's tail, lobster claw, lanyard, or a tether, you need two of em attached to bomber anchors at all times and I'm already quite used to evolving both my vocab and technique with each new discipline. I'm also extremely calm and comfortable in situations which'd empty most folks' bladders, and am a very fast learner. I'm strong and quite agile...which helps. I'm also WFR certified so I'm even somewhat qualified to stabilize victims until an ambulance arrives...



If you were me, how would you market yourself?

Where do I start with this? Oh yeah............Ill put it in chronological order for ya: A sawzall & 16" electric chainsaw.....woo whee you`re right you aint no skin flint thats trying to get it done cheap...............You`re an Idiot!!

A wood stove to heat the "adobe".....Good move! you splitting all that with your dremel tool?

70% of the ropes & 50% of the gear......................& 0% skill with even less commonsense!

rock jock & a caver..............& you`ve taught it.....! wow!............did I already say IDIOT? thought so!

what im thinking is you have spent too much time under the cows tail playing with your lobster claw while your pants have been filled with your own bladder..............somewhat qualified to stabilize victims????? you are or you are not...........somewhat? you are more than somewhat..........did I use the term Idiot to describe you? I thought so & thats not somewhat, thats all to clear.



LXT......................

 

[chile verde]

Where do I start with this? Oh yeah............Ill put it in chronological order for ya: A sawzall & 16" electric chainsaw.....woo whee you`re right you aint no skin flint thats trying to get it done cheap...............You`re an Idiot!!

A wood stove to heat the "adobe".....Good move! you splitting all that with your dremel tool?

70% of the ropes & 50% of the gear......................& 0% skill with even less commonsense!

rock jock & a caver..............& you`ve taught it.....! wow!............did I already say IDIOT? thought so!

what im thinking is you have spent too much time under the cows tail playing with your lobster claw while your pants have been filled with your own bladder..............somewhat qualified to stabilize victims????? you are or you are not...........somewhat? you are more than somewhat..........did I use the term Idiot to describe you? I thought so & thats not somewhat, thats all to clear.



LXT......................

Awesome! Constructive criticism at its finest. I'd be mildly offended by your tone, but then, you don't actually know me...which makes your speculation just that: harmless speculation. As for why I should respect your opinions, that remains to be seen.

If you don't mind my askin...how exactly did you get started? Previous experience/education? Gear? Who'd you work for, at what capacity? Serious question: I believe something can be learnt from everyone...even you!

I'm struggling to understand the source of your vitriole. Is it a pride thing? Trees are for tree-people, end of story, and the only acceptable newbies are unemployed laborers who can barely tie their shoes? Or is it a competition thing? Do you feel threatened that there's other climbers from related disciplines who might steal your jobs? Or is this merely a bored A$$hole thing?

I honestly don't get it. 90% of arborist SRT evolved out of caver SRT, yet when an experienced caver decides to climb a tree...you piss yourself. Says more about you, than it does about me.

 

[Iustinian]

Thanks all for the encouragement!

Iustinian, I think you're absolutely right, the free firewood aspect will be a simpler motive to explain than all the rest.

Are weekends more, or less, busy than weekdays? How useful a niche would I be filling for the typical company? What're typical starting wages like for novices?

I think it really depends on the companies that are in your area, and the time of year. Typical company? there's no such thing hahaha. I'm not familiar with your area but I would expect that you'll have large companies with multiple crews, bucket trucks, employees that only pick up and haul logs, employees that only grind stumps, etc and small companies that are still piling brush into a dump trailer, and everything in between.

Around here, there are ALOT of tree services that have an old electrical service bucket truck, a chip truck and chipper and NO CLIMBER. If you find one of those, they are going to be more patient with you during your learning curve, and they will probably be flexible with you on scheduling.

Have you thought about going thru the ArborMaster training?

 

[lxt]

Awesome! Constructive criticism at its finest. I'd be mildly offended by your tone, but then, you don't actually know me...which makes your speculation just that: harmless speculation. As for why I should respect your opinions, that remains to be seen.

If you don't mind my askin...how exactly did you get started? Previous experience/education? Gear? Who'd you work for, at what capacity? Serious question: I believe something can be learnt from everyone...even you!

I'm struggling to understand the source of your vitriole. Is it a pride thing? Trees are for tree-people, end of story, and the only acceptable newbies are unemployed laborers who can barely tie their shoes? Or is it a competition thing? Do you feel threatened that there's other climbers from related disciplines who might steal your jobs? Or is this merely a bored A$$hole thing?

I honestly don't get it. 90% of arborist SRT evolved out of caver SRT, yet when an experienced caver decides to climb a tree...you piss yourself. Says more about you, than it does about me.

Well my Lil pudding eater, you dont need to respect my opinions! I see your type on here all the time....ask a bunch of dumb questions & think you have the intellect to grasp & apply what you`ve been told..........you dont cave boy!

I grew up in this Biz, worked as a groundie @ 18 was hired on by Asplundh, went through a climbing apprenticeship, became a journey man, climbed for numerous Companies residential & commercial (line clearance) & so on.....

you are as big a threat as flushed stool & thinking you can start a biz with a sawzall & electric chainsaw is just down right the anal seal break you are! you are a troll....! you wanna enter the Biz? Go get a job with a tree service & learn, people like you come on here wanting to start your own Biz..........why? Cause you dont have the ability to work for an established company & learn...you wanna be the boss cause you knowitall & on top of that you think you`ll make big bucks......Not!

Caver......you are funny! when you land a job with a tree care company let us know....till then, just keep scratchin the dandruff off your sak...............





LXT...................

 

[chile verde]

Iustinian:
If anything I'm too patient! I'm too poor/busy right now to afford Arbormaster training, but I'd jump on it in a heartbeat given the opportunity. The plan right now is to land a weekend groundie gig and absorb as much as possible, collect next year's firewood, and re-assess my problem trees. If I can earn some gas money...bonus. I've already been pruning everything else on my property (<40' tall) for the past 5 years...gotten quite efficient and developing an eye for shape, anticipating future growth, and balancing fruit production with overall health...but I obviously need some hands-on experience w a professional outfit before committing to anything really big like my elms. Real 'idiotic', huh?

Oh, goodie! It's the smart guy:

Well my Lil pudding eater, you dont need to respect my opinions! I see your type on here all the time....ask a bunch of dumb questions & think you have the intellect to grasp & apply what you`ve been told..........you dont cave boy!

You're absolutely right. Respect must be earned. Based on your fuzzy grammar, vocab and articulation of thought, your previous post had me suspecting you were a 12 yr old who'd recently leapt beyond 'dumb' and 'stupid', and were practicing to take the plunge, publically using advanced 3-syllable words like...'idiot'. Nothing wrong with prepubescents flexing their intellectual might! Quite sadly, though: I can only infer that you are but an insecure, semi-literate adult with a little too much freetime.

I grew up in this Biz, worked as a groundie @ 18 was hired on by Asplundh, went through a climbing apprenticeship, became a journey man, climbed for numerous Companies residential & commercial (line clearance) & so on.....

That's actually pretty cool. I think one of this country's worst economic/business developments over the past 3+ decades, is the loss of so many apprenticeship trades. Tons of jobs, skills and even subcultures are being lost with each successive generation, and we're really screwing ourselves in the longrun. You should consider yourself fortunate. Do you employ any apprentices? What are their backgrounds?

you are as big a threat as flushed stool & thinking you can start a biz with a sawzall & electric chainsaw is just down right the anal seal break you are! you are a troll....! you wanna enter the Biz? Go get a job with a tree service & learn, people like you come on here wanting to start your own Biz..........why? Cause you dont have the ability to work for an established company & learn...you wanna be the boss cause you knowitall & on top of that you think you`ll make big bucks......Not!

I see you're not even reading my posts, just launching yourself from the shoulders of a strawman built of assumptions and preconceived notions...

Apologies if I came across as a knowitall, but seriously: which statement exactly, in either post, makes you think I wanna become a self-starting boss? Or that I don't have the ability to work or learn?!? Or even that I aim to start a biz with a friggin 18v cordless sawzall and a 94' Mazda B2300!?! Seems to me the problem lies within your appalling reading comprehension, NOT overconfidence on my part...

My sole intention behind this thread is to determine whether my plan is realistic. Others have stated outright that part-time weekend groundie work is probably a reasonable gig to explore. If they'd instead told me "no way, nobody works on weekends, nor is there demand for part-timer newbies" methinks I'd be spending my time right now getting quotes...not stubbornly trying to teach myself how to do something that I'm clearly unqualified to attempt.

you are a troll....!

Huh.

Caver......you are funny! when you land a job with a tree care company let us know....till then, just keep scratchin the dandruff off your sak...............
LXT...................

I will be sure to do that, although I suspect those scaley patches on my nutsack are just the potato chip crumbs you neglected to wipe off your chin...

I'll ask your mom to doublecheck for me. You know. Just in case...she did once mention something about your 'affliction'...

 

[lxt]

Hey all,

1. I've already taken down plenty of trees on my property, mostly Tree of Heaven (do these even qualify?), Siberian elm, and other junk trees which impede my various construction projects. I've got a couple of monster elms which need make-overs, and

I recognize I'm at the limit of what a single dude with an 18v sawzall, a cheap-o 16" AC electric chainsaw,

I've given this a lot of thought.

I'm really fortunate to have a rewarding 40 hr/wk lab gig with modest pay, decent benefits and lots of time off.

My, you use a lot of big words.........We is just but humble tree trimmers here! Now onto my apalling reading comprehension as you called it? Look above at what you wrote & then look at your most recent post of where you ask (stupidly) about the sawzall & elec chainsaw!!

continuing: so you have given it alot of thought? you come on here using verbality & grammatical savy to try & make up for the chaffing you received from a woman deprived father, You currently make modest pay with lots of time off....perhaps some goldbond applications during these down time moments would help.......I hear @ your house the father & son relationship is very special, ask Dad for some application pointers!

oh & BTW I dont like potato chips.............in your case a single pringle would shadow your manhood & leave you asking grandma to encourage your battered ego with incandescent thoughts of going through puberty again..........!

thought I might use some big words so I can feel special like you..........without the Dad love you have going on! Best thing to do is apply for a job sprout........you got the come backs & will fit right in!!! they gonna like a young one like you..........."you got a pretty mouth boy".... ahh but you have heard that before!!!

welp boys another wannabe, we`ll see how long he stays!



LXT..............

 

[treeclimber101]

You should be fine with your setup for years to come , as long as all the houses have light plugs you'll be a millionaire within a year ... I actually got started in trees :bang: because I was a well trained monkey trainer , so I figured I was suitable and well qualified , GOOD LUCK ....

 

[chile verde]

Now onto my apalling reading comprehension as you called it? Look above at what you wrote & then look at your most recent post of where you ask (stupidly) about the sawzall & elec chainsaw!!

I recognize I'm at the limit of what a single dude with an 18v sawzall, a cheap-o 16" AC electric chainsaw...

My points still stand (unlike your pathetic excuse of manhood). I couldn't justify/afford buying a real saw for dropping a few dozen smallish Tree of Heaven and Siberian Elm, and beyond that it's still slow-but-OK for cutting rounds. Sorry for not splurging on a Stihl or Husqvarna, but anything bigger than my crap-o-matic Remington would be needless...

continuing: so you have given it alot of thought? you come on here using verbality & grammatical savy to try & make up for the chaffing you received from a woman deprived father, You currently make modest pay with lots of time off....perhaps some goldbond applications during these down time moments would help.......I hear @ your house the father & son relationship is very special, ask Dad for some application pointers!

Savvy, am I? Thanks. I guess.

I don't share your telepathic powers of intuition, and couldn't possibly have known your woman's gone bye-bye, though it's not too difficult to infer her motives (she left you for an Amish man's sexy beard?). Tom Waits could write a song about you, and it might even earn some radio time.

Just don't bag on Goldbond, that stuff's magic and doesn't deserve your sacrilegous comments...can we possibly agree here?

oh & BTW I dont like potato chips.............in your case a single pringle would shadow your manhood & leave you asking grandma to encourage your battered ego with incandescent thoughts of going through puberty again..........!

Again, not telepathic, and before you start a cock-waving contest you'd best be able to find it.

thought I might use some big words so I can feel special like you..........without the Dad love you have going on! Best thing to do is apply for a job sprout........you got the come backs & will fit right in!!! they gonna like a young one like you..........."you got a pretty mouth boy".... ahh but you have heard that before!!!

welp boys another wannabe, we`ll see how long he stays!

Yep, I suppose so. My mouth is quite pretty, unlike yours...amongst other flaws, your upper right canine is chipped and left me a little sore that last time 'round.

You should be fine with your setup for years to come , as long as all the houses have light plugs you'll be a millionaire within a year ... I actually got started in trees because I was a well trained monkey trainer , so I figured I was suitable and well qualified , GOOD LUCK ....

Well, gee, haven't you got me pegged. I actually lied about the sawzall: my most favoritest tool is the rusty Harbor Freight handaxe I stole from Salvation Army...no AC required, so I figure I'm ready to incorporate!

Anybody else?

Meantime, thanks mods, it sure is nice being able to post without waiting 1-2 days for approval! It's prolly been killing lxt, whose rambling flamefest monogues so richly deserve a prompt response.

Thanks to everyone else, too. I'll start calling around and see what's what!

 

[Iustinian]

well - that was funny, and somewhat entertaining haha. happens alot here, but if you are willing to sift thru all that, there's lots of good info to be had/shared here.

 

[chile verde]

well - that was funny, and somewhat entertaining haha. happens alot here, but if you are willing to sift thru all that, there's lots of good info to be had/shared here.

For sure. Thx again all, and happy turkey-day...that's me signing off for the week.

lxt: surely, you can wait til Mon for my response to your inevitable puddle of insults, right?

 

[lxt]

Look, you come on to a forum gushing with wants of the trade on how to do it, Then in a toddler of a fit you lash out because we poke fun at you for using the "sawzall & electric chainsaw"............then to add more stupidity to your prattle (as if it is even possible) you state "I couldnt afford" to buy a "real" saw!!!!!

But you have tons of ropes & gear, NEWSFLASH.......... you wont go far in the tree biz without a "real" Saw!

The best thing you can do is to call around & get in with a good outfit, learn all you can, give it 2-3 years & then give it a try on your own..........if you even stick with it? you will learn real fast that this trade is unforgiving, the Vets will bust ya balls to see if you will stick it out........they dont wanna waste their time training a quitter & one day if you make it that far when you go through a few quitters then you`ll understand..............we weed out the unwanted in the field same as we do on here & you just got a small sample of reality!!!

Good Luck!


LXT...............

 

[Iustinian]

The best thing you can do is to call around & get in with a good outfit, learn all you can, give it 2-3 years & then give it a try on your own..........if you even stick with it? you will learn real fast that this trade is unforgiving, the Vets will bust ya balls to see if you will stick it out........they dont wanna waste their time training a quitter & one day if you make it that far when you go through a few quitters then you`ll understand..............we weed out the unwanted in the field same as we do on here & you just got a small sample of reality!!!

Good Luck!


LXT...............

I agree 1000%!

We do what less than 1% of anyone will do. We risk our lives EVERY day. We have to haul our 165-250lbs selves up +70ft before we can begin working (that's our "long drive to the office"). We have to accurately project the forces which we will create, and determine whether or not our equipment and the trees themselves will support what is needed to get the material safely to the ground without killing or injuring any person and destroying any property below. We work in one of the most dangerous industries there is -- Everyday.

"We are charged with the responsibility of caring for organisms that have the potential to live for centuries, very few professions can say that" (John Ball) Yet how much does the "typical" treeworker know about the tree he's working in. I'd like to think that the majority of the guys on this forum have learned from education and experience and are taking that quote seriously. Stick around, and you'll see that there are some seriously educated, seriously talented, seriously experienced members here. (but also some idiots)

And people typically have such little respect for us and what we do, and what we have to go thru to get it done. People undervalue our work. Other people have such little respect for us that they think they can get a trailer to haul brush and a chainsaw and start a tree service tommorrow.

I can specifically remember one day, a newbie groundguy being on a cell phone while I'm getting ready to send a rigged log down telling me "just a minute, I'm on the phone" -- when I explained how that was the last time he was ever going to be caught on the phone while someone's in a tree, he says "its just a [eff]ing tree service" -- REALLY? so basically, you're telling us that our life's work ain't jack? hmmmmm. The roper snapped his flip phone in half and chased him off the job.

We can be very unforgiving -- because we have to be. A single mistake can impact many lives and thousands somedays +$1m's of property.

I try to be nice, but that's just me. Everyone has to start somewhere, but I agree with lxt -- its best to start with another company, take the insults with a grain of salt and put your time in working hard with little acknowledgement other than a small check and go from there (which I think was your intent). Chances are, the guys you will be working for have watched a single crew turn over more than a dozen times in a year or two. This is the truth: I saw a company with 4 crews turn over 3 times in 1 year -- in less than one year I was the senior man, shouldn't be that way, but I moved on to a higher paying company the next spring.

 

[no tree to big]

ok first I would like to start by saying this has to be one of the best threads on this site!

second my opinion of the OP's plan...


chile verde, how much did you spend on that electric chainsaw? cause I'm betting you could have spent the same amount of money and at least bought yourself a homeowner grade gas powered saw off ebay or craigslist, ok maybe 20 bucks more... a sawzall???? thats just retarded... hell today I tuned up the little husqvarna 136 I picked up for 75 bucks thing was almost new came with a brand new narrow kerf bar and chain that little guy sure screams for what it is. Moral of the story you NEED a real saw if I was a homeower and saw you looking for a plug or saw you up in my tree with a sawzall id tell you to get lost

and a bit from how I got started ever since I was a youngster I always wanted to help with firewood duties and just liked watching things get cut down then around 13 I started running a little saw (16" mac 3200) and slowly progressed into felling smaller trees in the woods then at 16 I started climbing and doing some easy removals (no rigging) and by easy I mean spike up and have to make a few cuts and your done. all this solely for getting free firewood then at about 18-19 I started doing some smaller paying gigs once again very easy stuff minimal rigging. by 21 I thought I had a good grasp on rigging and a decent skills set when it came to climbing and had started taking on pretty "risky"stuff then I got a job as a groundie and boy did I have a wake up call I new NOTHING about tree work!!!!! you need to work for a real co. for a while to get an idea of whats going on and I dont mean just go work for someone and drag brush I mean drag your brush and pay attention to what the climber is doing and how he moves around watch how he gets up and over big gnarly crotches how he balances himself on 4" wood, everything!!! watch how every piece is rigged what does the piece do when the rope is tied here as opposed to there? and I'm sorry to say but working one day a week its going to take a long time to get all this jammed in your head not to mention from my personel experience saturdays are reserved for the easy jobs so your going to be on more of a learning curve.

one thing to show you climbing trees and cutting them down is so much different then any other climbing why are there so many news stories anbout firefighters getting killed doing tree work? they all are extensivly trained in rope skills...

don't go and do anything stupid and make yourself dead we need you to post your experiences just like AA, lol

 

[no tree to big]

I agree 1000%!







We can be very unforgiving -- because we have to be. A single mistake can impact many lives and thousands somedays +$1m's of property.

I try to be nice, but that's just me. Everyone has to start somewhere, but I agree with lxt -- its best to start with another company, take the insults with a grain of salt and put your time in working hard with little acknowledgement other than a small check and go from there (which I think was your intent). Chances are, the guys you will be working for have watched a single crew turn over more than a dozen times in a year or two. This is the truth: I saw a company with 4 crews turn over 3 times in 1 year -- in less than one year I was the senior man, shouldn't be that way, but I moved on to a higher paying company the next spring.

not so much this jobsince I'm stil the "new guy" but with the last one I had but I can see where it would work in this line of work, I was in a managment role most of the time, I was probably the toughest person to work for in the building bt you know what I had the best crew n the building I went through a lot of new people but when I got a person with good work ethic and wasn't an idiot me being tough made them a very solid employee in a very short time.

there must be some big diferences in people from where I live to where you live because in the co. I'm with there is no turnover I mean I was the second person hired in 3 or 4 years same thing with a lot of the other co.s around here

 

[Iustinian]

there must be some big diferences in people from where I live to where you live because in the co. I'm with there is no turnover I mean I was the second person hired in 3 or 4 years same thing with a lot of the other co.s around here

varies from company to company really. I was once at a place where the ground guy had been there for over 20 years.