Building Log Lift, How to add 2nd Valve

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Some people are passing pure horse hockey by saying it is not acceptable, or it is immoral or anything other than plain OK to place open center valves in series or "stacked" in this application ( sorry for the rant, second time this week for this discussion). You can go look at any older back hoe, grader etc that was built back when such equipment had gear pumps and all the valves were open center and made to stack with long through bolts. Want to have 50 valves? just need to find long enough bolts. I have worked on this stuff for a living for 35 of my 52 years.

With the single valves like you have stacking is a simple matter of a pipe nipple long enough to give clearance to turn, dope the threads and screw them together out port to in port just like you said. The only way you can have excess pressures as some claim is if you fail to properly set the reliefs in the valves and then your going to have it no matter if you pull one valve at once or twenty one. Each open center valve has a relief for that circuit. If you pull two or more valves at once the lowest set relief will control system PSI. period end of discussion.

Also BS is "you cant run two functions at once with stacked valves". Want to see my splitter do it? Seldom will you pull two valves at once on a splitter anyway unless you have a good helper and if so he better be both good and attentive. Want to get hurt spltting wood? get lots off things moving and two guys pulling levers. I have two darned good helpers and it is taboo for morethan one guy to be yanking levers.

Power beyond is needed in systems much more complex in flows and performance than wood splitters. To understand Power beyond you need to understand open center and closed center valves. Open center means that when in the hold position oil flows unrestricted from the in port to the out port Closed center means oil is topped from flowing when valve is in the center. Obviously you cannot stop the oil from flowing when you have a simple gear or vane pump as used on our splitters. The oil flow is either is used for work or goes straight through the valve(s) and back to the tank. Back before the term power beyond was invented we did the same thing with what is called a "convertible" valves. An open center convertible valve was made closed center by installing a plug in the spool so oil could not flow through it when centered. These were used in systems that required that type of valve (another long winded discussion) Now a days they are still called convert a valves, untill placed in a "power beyond" situation. Power beyond is nothing new, it just a modern term for placing two or more control valves in parellel flows instead of series. But back to a splitting ciruit, converting valve 1 in the flows to closed center is what the power beyond conversion is in the Prince flow example from prior poster (I have that same valve) The second valve must then be open center. If you wish to go that route and want better instructions for plumbing Illbe glad to try and help you out.


I guess I have said enough, LOL

Pic is my splitter with 4 valves stacked or in series . First is a 2 spool Prince Auto cycle valve, then the wedge lift, then the log lift which are just ordinary “log splitter” valves sold at many places. Wont guide the space shuttle, but doesn’t need to.

<IMG SRC= http://i30.tinypic.com/2h6h8q0.jpg>

Good post Butch. I thought that you were just tired and not thinking and typing at the same time It was posted @ midnight. Very good explanation of the hydraulics. One more person I can right down for info when I go to build my own splitter.

Is your splitter PTO driven, how big of a pump are you running, single stage or dual stage how big is the ram on the splitter.

Thanks
Beefie
 
add valves

It should work fine as long as the downstream valve is not too restrictive. I personally would (and did) put the auto cycle valve as last in the chain. That way you have less chance of a back pressure spike when the valve switches directions. The backpressure could trip the second detent.

If it is going to be a big tear up to put it last then try it with the additional valve on the return line. If it works consistently then keep it.

Don

I have 2 single valves with the second tying into the auto cycle being a detent so ,when my detents on the autocycle set, the lift with the detent valve decides to lift about 4 inches everytime it detents sounds like pressure backs into the detent valve it will actually move the single detent valve handle. (dangerous) Please help Ill try to post pics if i can figure this site out Thanks
 
I have 2 single valves with the second tying into the auto cycle being a detent so ,when my detents on the auto-cycle set, the lift with the detent valve decides to lift about 4 inches every time it detents sounds like pressure backs into the detent valve it will actually move the single detent valve handle. (dangerous) Please help Ill try to post pics if i can figure this site out Thanks

Ouch! That is scary. Which valve is doing the jumping, the first or the middle? Does it jump if you just hold the first lever pulled of the auto cycle at the end of the stroke? If so it could be the pressure build up in the feed line causing the spool to shift. If that is the case you may have a broken or relaxed centering spring. If the lever of the valve moves when it happens this is most likely the case. In any case one of your spool valves does not like having pressure build up or fluctuations on it's tank drain port.

The pressure land on the spool should be symmetrical but maybe the drain lands are not and the pressure spikes are causing the spool to shift. It appears you have two different brands of valves upstream of your auto-cycle valve, maybe one of them is not compatible with being put into series. Did you run this rig previously without an auto-cycle valve to run the ram? Did it have three valves in series then?

I haven't had any issues with interaction between the valves but I am using the power beyond port in my first valve (Prince RD-5200) so both my valves have their own tank drains. Only the open center pump circuit goes from the first valve to the second.

Hopefully Butch will chime in as his setup is very similar to yours. Your solution might be to change out the valve with the reaction with another valve like the one that doesn't have the issue.

Don
 
Nice job on the splitters, guys. I like the old A.C. too. I'm going to graft a lift on the old homemade splitter I've got...thanks for the good info!
 
fixed problem

I moved the middle valve to the outlet of my autocycle and it works great. I was a little nervous as to i didnt know if it would hurt anything but parts are replaceable. I splitt 1 cord in no time without any problems Thanks for the advice.
 
The valves on my splitter have been plumbed that way for many years without a problem. I used to think that it wouldn't work also until I went to work at a sawmill one time and the debarker had a bank of about 8-10 single valves all connected with nipples, and this was a factory set up. Worked fine.
 
Butch and Don

If you get a chance, can you post a pic of underneath the log lift?
Want to see how you mounted the cylinder.
 
pics

some pics of finished splitter before valves were switched. Next project is a four way wedge.
 
That's one kick azz lookin splitter with 2 lifts, great job!!! :cheers: Like mine that's gotta be a biatch to move unless you hook it to something. Next thing is to put a piece of timber on that monster instead of kindling wood for a photo shoot :hmm3grin2orange:
 
Here are some pics of the log lift.

It is made of 3" channel because that is what I had laying around. The bracket is bolted to the beam with the log guide on the other side.

The cylinder mounts using some lugs welded to the bottom flange of the 8 x 8 in beam. The other end of the cylinder mounts to a pipe welded between the sides of the log lift with a couple of lugs.

The range of motion is from slightly below level of the outer part to the inner section being level with the top of the beam. The pictures actually show it sagging down some.

I have a jack on the other side of the beam from the lift to allow use of the log lift when not tied to a vehicle. You can see it in one of the photos in the transport position.

When I go down the road I pull the pin out of the bottom of the table and flip the table over the beam. I then bungee up the cylinder. That way I do not have the log lift hanging out the side scaring oncoming traffic.:jawdrop:

Don
 
Sorry guys but cannot post a pic of that log lift because it no longer exists. I merged my splitter into a processor I built over the summer. You can see the splitter beam in the pic, its the red part to the left side. I designed my processor so I could use the splitter manualy on stuff too big to run through the machine,( or when I want to run a saw:)) I do have a log lift on the processor that is real unique but I dont have a pic of it to show ya'll.

The processor from the rear

<IMG SRC=http://i28.tinypic.com/2zsz96f.jpg>
 
That's one kick azz lookin splitter with 2 lifts, great job!!! :cheers: Like mine that's gotta be a biatch to move unless you hook it to something. Next thing is to put a piece of timber on that monster instead of kindling wood for a photo shoot :hmm3grin2orange:

A little hard but it is balanced well just need a hydro motor for the jack and driveable it be
 
hydraulic ?

Does anyone know what the valve is called that Timberwolf uses on the back of the ram cylinder to bypass valve and go straight to the tank?
 
Sorry guys but cannot post a pic of that log lift because it no longer exists. I merged my splitter into a processor I built over the summer. You can see the splitter beam in the pic, its the red part to the left side. I designed my processor so I could use the splitter manualy on stuff too big to run through the machine,( or when I want to run a saw:)) I do have a log lift on the processor that is real unique but I dont have a pic of it to show ya'll.

The processor from the rear

<IMG SRC=http://i28.tinypic.com/2zsz96f.jpg>

looks good post some pics of the beast
 
QDoes anyone know what the valve is called that Timberwolf uses on the back of the ram cylinder to bypass valve and go straight to the tank? Q



I couldn't find anything on the site referring to it, but it may be a fairly common industrial circuit using a pilot operated check or poppet from the closed end of cylinder directly back to tank. The pilot signal comes from the rod side of the manual valve. Anytime the cylinder is being retracted, the pressure to the rod side also pilots open the bypass and the high flow coming out of closed side skips the main control valve and goes directly to tank. (It could be done to both ports, for both directions, but there is no reason to do so on the rod side.)

Any pilot operated (PO) check valve or PO spool valve can work. A remote ported unloading valve (similar to what is in a two stage pump, but in an external body all of its own), or remote ported counterbalance valve, can all be made to do the same thing. Basically, any valve that can open a path to tank when piloted with a pressure signal from the rod side of the circuit.

This type of circuit could work well on a splitter when the load is always resistive and doesn’t run ahead of the control. If the cylinder can overrun (say a log lift going down), a PO check can work but it may be unstable and chatter. Counterbalance may work better, but beyond the scope of this discussion.

There is some explanation here from Bud Trinkels book posted on HydrPneumatics website

http://www.hydraulicspneumatics.com/200/eBooks/Article/True/45149/


Sun Hydraulics is a big name. Hydraforce, Parker/Sterling, Modular Controls/Vickers/Eaton probably all have them.
I haven't checked surplus center, they may have. They had surplus remote piloted relief/unloading valves, but only three left and I bought all three this summer at $10 each.

This type of valve is not something Northern Tool or Harbor Freight would have.


The reason for the unloading is to reduce the pressure drop back to tank in a large flow portion of the circuit. In industrial equipment the flow differences can be huge if the cylinder has a large rod compared to its bore size. Logsplitter, not so much difference, and I doubt worth the complexity unless you have a large cylinder and large pump flow.

When a circuit is FLOW limited, i.e. like most small pump logsplitters, flow at the cylinder is defined by the pump output. Retract speed is faster than extend because the rod side area is smaller. Same gpm into smaller area = cylinder moves faster.

However, the flow out of the closed side is more than the pump flow into the rod side because of the larger area, so there can be quite high flows out through the main control valve. Pressure drops can get high, flow forces can make the valve malfunction, but using larger valves can get expensive. Then this circuit can make some sense.

Bunny trail, but in an extreme case, the circuit can become PRESSURE limited and the retract speed is actually SLOWER than extend speed. This is due to the high backpressure pushing against the larger area on the closed side of piston. The balance of pump flow ends up going across the relief valve. Servovalve circuits all work this way, but they use pressure compensated variable pumps. Retract is slower than extend. Not common sense at all, but if you work out the math it is obvious why.


kcj
 
Suppose the valves are run at 2700 PSI. How are the individual valves tuned for this pressure if they are connected in series with steel pipe between them?

Is it possible to run the log lift at 1500 PSI and the split cyl at 2700 PSI with them connected in series?
 
yes, but only if the 2700 si relief valve is first in the circuit, and the 1500 psi relief is second. It will always relieve at the lowest settting that is 'online' so to speak. When first one operates, the second one is out of the picture.
 
I'm in the process of building a log lift and what i was told is that you can't run the control valves in series only because when you actuate the lift, the splitter ram may activate also. I was told to simply tee off of the first pressure in and run that to your second log lift control valve. In other words, run them in parallel. I picked up another log splitter detent valve and was going to do it that way but later, found a two spool valve which will save me some fittings and plumbing. Now I'll have two extra valves left over to add something else to my splitter, ha, ha. Yes, I was told about power beyond and all that. It means that you have to buy a valve that has that port and a sleeve to go in it, an added expense that's not needed. Hope this helps anyone.
 
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