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Both Mike and Guy have elements of truth in their posts. They are diametrically opposed but nevertheless neither is completely wrong (or right). Iwould expand your parameters a little Brian. Some diseases can be controled by pruning (Fireblight for example). Of course the tree isn't thriving while diseased but it may thrive after proper pruning. A lot of trees demonstrate greater vigor if they are pruned judiciously. They look and last far better than neglected trees. On the other hand many, many urban trees are pruned to death! No doubt about it-pruning live limbs is wounding. It is potentially harmful. It does not necessarily follow that it will harm or cannot benefit the tree. Drawing parrallells to human beans is fraught with problems and non-sequiters but even animal tissue can be wounded for the organism's longterm benefit. I don't think we gain much by trying to pigeonhole everything as "good" or "bad". There really are some gray areas Some debatable areas. Some areas where we simply must wait and see.:angel:
 
oh ..........and whack that little stick, it can be replaced with a nicer one in 20 years........
 
Originally posted by Stumper
I don't think we gain much by trying to pigeonhole everything as "good" or "bad".
THe voice of reason! Right you are.

The happiest part of an inventory is when I tell the client, "That tree doesn't need anything from us.":p
 
Well once again I see all the opinions expressed here as AS at its finest... Everyone has something of value to contribute and as in all things, different people have different opinions, and I Am soooooooo grateful that we all have this forum, in which to share our thoughts and experiences....
I think it is important to be able to step back from the "full speed ahead charge" pace of modern life and look at the effects of social engineering on our perceptions of reality.... So much of what we think is "true", that which we are so sure of, is really nothing more than a story we were told over and over until we lost the ability to distinguish it from objective truth... Our language, education, entertainment, senses, etc, are huge filters through which we must relate to the world. These filters shape our perception of reality in ways that are often imperceptible to the observer. To me that is one of the greatest gifts of traveling to and studying other cultures... When we can enter into another version of "reality", it helps to bring an awareness of our own skewed perceptions....
Our skewed versions of reality are often filled with unquestioned assumptions.... So, when faced with a question or problem, it is helpful to ask "what is really true here?".... Separating the facts from the story.... For example, say we had an agreement to meet for dinner at 7 PM... and you walked in at 7:15..... What is true here???? 1) you said you would meet me at the restaurant at 7 PM. and 2) you walked in the door at 7:15.... Whereas "you were late" is all story... and even more story would be the further interpretations like "you don't respect the value of my time", you didn't have the common courtesy to call", "I can't trust you to keep your word" etc... Many people are unable to distinguish between what is true and the story that they wrap around what really happened.
So what does all that have to do with cameras in trees??? I think we've all been victims of these unquestioned assumptions of our industry.... Of worthwhile note here is also the historical tendency for those who point out these false and unquestioned assumptions to be met with hatred and persecution by the ruling establishment.... So I think that some of Guy's statements would fall under the category of unquestioned assumptions.... For example the statement "It's good for any organism to shed dying tissue. That's why they do it on their own; proper pruning just anticipates that natural act." Guy, what science do you have to back that up??? I also think that is a long way from your earlier position “A healthier tree would remain if height was reduced to the fuller canopy just below the present top. If that was done and sprawl reduced on trunk toward house, strain would be much less on the base”. Here you seem to advocate crown reduction ( which seems to me to be a long way from shedding dying tissue) as a means to reduce failure at crotch. If what you mean is that removing living branches at the top of this tree, because they are going to die in the future, is helpful to the tree and its health…. I would strongly disagree and suggest that such an attitude shows clearly the human arrogance in thinking that we humans know more about what’s best for the tree than the tree itself….
Another unquestioned assumption of our industry might be “if Shigo said it, it must be right”. Shigo is a great scientist and revolutionary thinker, no doubt, yet he has no monopoly on the final truth… Many of his former recommendations and findings will no doubt be proven wrong as new science replaces the old…
We all are immersed in a sea of assumptions and skewed thinking…. There is no way around that… It is helpful to understand this and remain as humble as possible… To think that we really know “the truth” about what is good for trees is unreasonable… We are all just doing the best we can with what we do know….
Guy do you know that there has never been a double blind study proving the efficacy of bypass cardiac surgery?…. What are the unquestioned assumptions of that medical paradigm… I’ve seen well researched reports that conclude the benefits of bypass are altogether unproven and highly questionable and for some demographics bypass is downright dangerous…. Now I wonder how many heart surgeons think, as you do, that money has nothing to do with the way they practice medicine???
 
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Originally posted by murphy4trees
"It's good for any organism to shed dying tissue. That's why they do it on their own; proper pruning just anticipates that natural act." Guy, what science do you have to back that up??? Back what up? Organisms do shed dying tissue; that's just observation. Would they do it if it was bad for them? Good pruning like any good tree care mimics or at least works withnature. you seem to advocate crown reduction ( which seems to me to be a long way from shedding dying tissue) Many of the trees I work with are construction- or or other root-damaged specimens. The tree in the picture had dieback (or very selective caterpillars)I very seldom reduce vigorous branches from treetops. such an attitude shows clearly the human arrogance in thinking that we humans know more about what’s best for the tree than the tree itself…. There's that "arrogance" claim again. No offense, but here it's bs. We humans know what's best for the tree when we look at trees closely enough to see what they're up to, and work with that.
Shigo has no monopoly on the final truth…and he was the first to say that. do you know that there has never been a double blind study proving the efficacy of bypass cardiac surgery I’ve seen well researched reports that conclude the benefits of bypass are altogether unproven
This will be a great surprise to all the people walking around today who wouldn't be if not for that surgery. WTF a double blind study is I have no clue. I do agree there is not a lot of research to go on in tree or human doctoring because no one wants to lose a patient for the cause of science. So yes we just do our best with what we know, and seek to know more so we can do better. Now go find that TCI article; you owe them and us a reference about that ball-dropping allegation.
 

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