Catalytic vs Secondary Burn Technology Advantages?

[slowp]

Is an IWB an indoor stove? If so, something is wrong if it smokes out the house. As for hiring a chimney sweep? I did--there's something about being up on a roof that is scary for me unless I have a rope to hang onto. Which is weird because I've negotiated many a scary bluff. It was $130. He cleaned it, took things apart, gave it a good look at, put a bit of sealant around because I'd had a drip inside the house a couple of times, filled out a form, and pronounced it in excellent shape. It gave me a feeling of relief not having to wonder about how much buildup--there was not much after a few years. Best of all, he came out here, which is out of the way for most businesses--an hour at least both ways, and didn't charge an extra amount.

I'll have him back in a couple or so years...

And sorry for the thread drift. My stove is a secondary burn and I haven't tried to keep it going all night. I don't think it would because it is small and there isn't a lot of room inside to fill it up.

 

[Marshy]

Which Lopi does your BIL have? I have a 380, the forerunner to the Endevour, and have almost no burping of smoke? I have a straight 6" flue, probably right at ideal length. The ONLY time I have an issue is when my screen on my rain cap get clogged with creosote. My stove is a little big for my house, so it does get choked down pretty tight overnight.

Since mine is an early attempt at a secondary stove, it's not real clean burning, I would consider it a "smoke lizard". If I remember correctly, it's about 20 years old. I believe at least one of the secondary tubes is cracked, and I suspect the screws holding them in place are probably rusted in place. I have a very well insulated house, and when I can afford to replace the stove, will go smaller. I am thinking about the catalyst/secondary issue myself. I'm pretty sure I don't need long burns, so I'm leaning toward a secondary type (probably a smaller Lopi) at this point.

I think you are getting a little confused. My BIL's Lopi doesnt burp, my old stove does if I toss in some wood and close the door without letting it catch flame. The wood will smolder enough to fill the firebox and when it ignites it will woosh and burp some unburnt gas out the inlet draft. I have to make sure when I reload to leave the door cracked until to wood catches flame before shutting the door. In comparison, it is hard to even tell I heat with wood compared to my BIL's house. For some reason his house smells of smoke and you can see the shadows on the walls for the nails that hold the sheet rock on the studs. IDK if he is not letting it burn down enough when he reloads or if his draft is just so bad that it billows out when he reloads. Regardless, I wont tolerate a stove that lets in a lot of smoke when reloading. That is one of the most important things.

 

[BeatCJ]

Yup, I was confused. Even still, his issue probably isn't his stove. I have a bypass damper I open, open the draft control under the door and make sure I see flames in the firebox (if I'm reloading it hot) and I get no burping, rollout or smell into the house. I do open the door slowly, to make sure it's pulling air in. I wouldn't let your BIL's problem influence your purchase.

My only reservation about a full blown IWB is every one I've ever seen let out a lot of smoke when it was refueled and that does not jive well with me. The reason I like my current stove is because I can successfully refuel it without it ever leaking smoke into the house. Sure there are a few occasions in the whole year that mine might burp (self induced) but compared to my BIL with his LOPI stove where I can see the soot on his walls I'm way ahead.

Anyways, the discussion about cat vs secondary burn is still applicable when talking about IWB's, I just am less familiar with what's available vs free standing stoves...

I didn't know that LOPI made Indoor Wood furnaces, but I just can't believe they would allow a bunch of smoke into the home.

 

[Dirtboy]

I have an Avalon Rainier insert with the secondary burn tubes. Clean them every year with the rest of it, and sweep the chimney liner after burn season. 13 years with no problems.

 

[Marshy]

Is an IWB an indoor stove? If so, something is wrong if it smokes out the house. As for hiring a chimney sweep? I did--there's something about being up on a roof that is scary for me unless I have a rope to hang onto. Which is weird because I've negotiated many a scary bluff. It was $130. He cleaned it, took things apart, gave it a good look at, put a bit of sealant around because I'd had a drip inside the house a couple of times, filled out a form, and pronounced it in excellent shape. It gave me a feeling of relief not having to wonder about how much buildup--there was not much after a few years. Best of all, he came out here, which is out of the way for most businesses--an hour at least both ways, and didn't charge an extra amount.

I'll have him back in a couple or so years...

And sorry for the thread drift. My stove is a secondary burn and I haven't tried to keep it going all night. I don't think it would because it is small and there isn't a lot of room inside to fill it up.

IWB = Indoor Wood Boiler. Boilers in general are considered smog pumps IMO regardless if indoor or outdoor. That's why I'm hesitent to bring a wood boiler in the house because of that. I have a oil fired boiler that I use for backup so idealy I would like to get something that uses the existing hydronic system and oil boiler as a backup. That is why Im considering something like the thermo control because 50% of the heat goes into the water coild and the other 50% is radiated like a normal wood stove.

Some stoves up for consideration are;
Jotul Rangely, Oslo, or Firelight
Quardafire Steptop
Blaze King Princess or King

Any other worth considering? I head US Stove Company has been having issues with their stoves, anyone have any experience with them?

 

[Marshy]

Yup, I was confused. Even still, his issue probably isn't his stove. I have a bypass damper I open, open the draft control under the door and make sure I see flames in the firebox (if I'm reloading it hot) and I get no burping, rollout or smell into the house. I do open the door slowly, to make sure it's pulling air in. I wouldn't let your BIL's problem influence your purchase.



I didn't know that LOPI made Indoor Wood furnaces, but I just can't believe they would allow a bunch of smoke into the home.

Oy vey, I believe you are still confusing some of the details. No one mentioned a furnace and I did not question my BILs method of operating his stove. He might very well be doing it incorrectly when opening it for refueling or wood less than seasoned IDK. I personally wouldnt want anyone coming into my home questioning me how I run my stove so I gave him the same courtesy. Im not letting that fact scare me away from a more modern stove, I just hope that my house does not succumb to the same smell as that is really important to me that it does not smell and I am about at my limit with my current stove. I personally think a cat stove might be the best for me. The Cat stoves have less emmisions too which is important for my young kids that will be outside playing in the down wind area. Nice even heat is key also and BK seems to be the best Cat stove out there and only marginly more expensive over the secondary stoves.

 

[Ambull01]

So, at some point in the near future I will be considering a change to my current heating system. I currently have an old free standing Shenandoah. It does the job but it has plenty of draw backs. The main reason for upgrading is 1) more efficiency in terms of longer burns and less wood, 2) less emissions.

To my understanding there are two basic options for free standing stoves, catalytic vs secondary combustion. My concerns with the catalytic stoves are the life of the catalytic and inconveience of possibility having to replace it mid season when I need 24/7 heat.

On the secondary combustion type stoves I've heard the secondary tubes can wear out as well. Has anyone experienced this or the need to replace secondary combustion tubes?

What has been your experience with either or both thechnologies and would you choose one over the other?

Of course I might trash the idea of a free standing stove and get a thermo control so I can operate my baseboard heat.

Check out the Ideal Steel stove from Woodstock. Cat and secondary tubes. Good burn times, really low emissions, great price. Base model is around $1,600 I think. The works which includes soapstone is about $2k. Search for BrianK on this site and read his great thread about the IS.

 

[Marshy]

Check out the Ideal Steel stove from Woodstock. Cat and secondary tubes. Good burn times, really low emissions, great price. Base model is around $1,600 I think. The works which includes soapstone is about $2k. Search for BrianK on this site and read his great thread about the IS.

I've read about them. I could consider that as well its in the same price range and about the same size as the others. One concern is shipping cost. I can drive less than an hour and pick up a blaze king. IDK what it would cost to ship one of the Woodstock stoves...

 

[Ambull01]

I've read about them. I could consider that as well its in the same price range and about the same size as the others. One concern is shipping cost. I can drive less than an hour and pick up a blaze king. IDK what it would cost to ship one of the Woodstock stoves...

Very true, shipping may cost a fortune lol. I have my heart set on picking one up if I can get past my sensible side screaming at me to save money and buy a Englanger 30-NCH from HD for $700-$900.

I've heard Woodstock has some great customer service. Went on their site and read a bit about their company. They only sell their stoves direct and each order has to be placed before they make it. The company is really small too. So, you have an issue with the stove, call them up and you're talking to someone with a vested interest in pleasing you. I know other companies say customers come first but I really doubt the drive thru lady working at McDonald's really gives a crap about providing great service and hoping you buy from them again. It's probably relatively easy to get the daggone owner of the company on the phone. Sorry, I know this has nothing to do with your question but just thought that was great.

 

[Idahonative]

Very true, shipping may cost a fortune lol. I have my heart set on picking one up if I can get past my sensible side screaming at me to save money and buy a Englanger 30-NCH from HD for $700-$900.

I've heard Woodstock has some great customer service. Went on their site and read a bit about their company. They only sell their stoves direct and each order has to be placed before they make it. The company is really small too. So, you have an issue with the stove, call them up and you're talking to someone with a vested interest in pleasing you. I know other companies say customers come first but I really doubt the drive thru lady working at McDonald's really gives a crap about providing great service and hoping you buy from them again. It's probably relatively easy to get the daggone owner of the company on the phone. Sorry, I know this has nothing to do with your question but just thought that was great.

Good point but consider this: When shopping for a car, both Honda and Hyundai make real good ones. Honda has a three year warranty while Hyundai has a ten year. Why would anyone ever buy the Honda? Because you will probably never need it.

 

[Ambull01]

Good point but consider this: When shopping for a car, both Honda and Hyundai make real good ones. Honda has a three year warranty while Hyundai has a ten year. Why would anyone ever buy the Honda? Because you will probably never need it.

Maybe. You could also say Hyundai offers a really long warranty because they know chances are they'll never have to make a major repair in warranty. I know Honda's sell more vehicles than Hyundai but there are far less recall for Hyundai. Also, not sure I could call Hyundai and speak to the owner/president when if my car's wheels somehow fell off while driving. Also, Hyundai is at the top when it comes to reliability so stop hating on Korean wheels! lol

 

[Idahonative]

Maybe. You could also say Hyundai offers a really long warranty because they know chances are they'll never have to make a major repair in warranty. I know Honda's sell more vehicles than Hyundai but there are far less recall for Hyundai. Also, not sure I could call Hyundai and speak to the owner/president when if my car's wheels somehow fell off while driving. Also, Hyundai is at the top when it comes to reliability so stop hating on Korean wheels! lol

No hating here...wife would be mad if I hated on her Hyundai Elantra. Between my parents, me, my sister, and my two nieces, we have owned seven Honda's since 1986 and not one of them ever had a single problem. I like the new Elantra's alot but my point was that Honda had developed a reputation over the past few decades for being a trouble free, well made, reliable car. So much so they don't need to offer a ten year warranty to sell cars.

But back on the subject: Like most things in life, you get what you pay for and stoves are no exception. I've learned that the hard way.

 

[Marine5068]

we have heated our large house with and without cat technology.
Cat stoves are the way to go for long efficient burns.no coloured paper
or tin foils etc but the combustors are less than $300 to replace
you save that in fuel costs 10 times over Our stoves are the Blaze King
full sized cats with dual fans and burn 24hours ,well worth the 3,600 hundred
loonies !

Was looking at the BK King/Ultra wood stove for a replacement to my old Century.
$3600 is a bit much, but if I don't buy a BK then I'll be spending $2200 on a good, large, secondary-burn stove and using more wood I guess.

 

[Marshy]

Good point but consider this: When shopping for a car, both Honda and Hyundai make real good ones. Honda has a three year warranty while Hyundai has a ten year. Why would anyone ever buy the Honda? Because you will probably never need it.

Kind of a poor analogy IMO. Some companies offer a longer warranty because they are confident their product will be trouble free for that period. It wouldnt make good business sense to offer a warranty in which you would lose money. The fact that they are willing to stand behind their product that long is a benefit to the consumer and it gives confidence IMO.

Why wont Woodstock off a 10 year warranty? They are relatively new to the market with that hybrid stove and not exactly well known IMO. Maybe it would help bolster sales, or maybe it would cost the compant money?

 

[Ambull01]

No hating here...wife would be mad if I hated on her Hyundai Elantra. Between my parents, me, my sister, and my two nieces, we have owned seven Honda's since 1986 and not one of them ever had a single problem. I like the new Elantra's alot but my point was that Honda had developed a reputation over the past few decades for being a trouble free, well made, reliable car. So much so they don't need to offer a ten year warranty to sell cars.

But back on the subject: Like most things in life, you get what you pay for and stoves are no exception. I've learned that the hard way.

Well I only have first hand experience with two Hondas, both Civics. Both had transmission issues but that may have been due to maintenance or lack thereof.

If I'm able to buy a reliable piece of equipment for less than the competition and it comes with a longer warranty I'm all in. Hyundai was in fact the number 1 rated in reliability so I guess it's just perception. People think Honda and Toyota are super reliable and they are. But, they've also had a LOT of recalls. Some major some minor.

No way! There are great stoves out with small price tags.

Was looking at the BK King/Ultra wood stove for a replacement to my old Century.
$3600 is a bit much, but if I don't buy a BK then I'll be spending $2200 on a good, large, secondary-burn stove and using more wood I guess.

Damn that's high. I think I'll buy two IS stoves instead. Check out the Woodstock Ideal Steel stove. Secondary and cat for about $1,700 or so for the base model. A bit over $2k will get you the fancy pants model with soapstone and some fu fu crap.

 

[Ambull01]

Kind of a poor analogy IMO. Some companies offer a longer warranty because they are confident their product will be trouble free for that period. It wouldnt make good business sense to offer a warranty in which you would lose money. The fact that they are willing to stand behind their product that long is a benefit to the consumer and it gives confidence IMO.

Why wont Woodstock off a 10 year warranty? They are relatively new to the market with that hybrid stove and not exactly well known IMO. Maybe it would help bolster sales, or maybe it would cost the compant money?

Amen!!Using the warranty is a No Go at this stage.

That's a good question. I can't seem to find warranty info on their site. I've heard the cat prices for Woodstock stoves are around half the amount of BK stoves. So, taking the initial stove price into consideration, you would have to buy a lot of cats for the Woodstock to make up for the upfront cost of the BK. Hope that makes sense, I think I jacked up my thoughts.

 

[Ambull01]

Also, this is from BK's website:

Q. Do catalysts need replacing?

A. Yes. After a number of years, catalysts can loose their efficiencies. It is not uncommon to get up to 10 years or more service from a catalyst. Burning well-seasoned dry cordwood only can best prolong the catalyst life. If you are planning on burning boards with nail, paint or chemical treatments, or using your stove to burn household trash, you should not use a catalytic wood stove. Of course, all catalysts installed in Blaze King wood models are covered by a 6 year prorated warranty.

Not sure where the 10 years came from?

 

[Idahonative]

Also, this is from BK's website:

Q. Do catalysts need replacing?

A. Yes. After a number of years, catalysts can loose their efficiencies. It is not uncommon to get up to 10 years or more service from a catalyst. Burning well-seasoned dry cordwood only can best prolong the catalyst life. If you are planning on burning boards with nail, paint or chemical treatments, or using your stove to burn household trash, you should not use a catalytic wood stove. Of course, all catalysts installed in Blaze King wood models are covered by a 6 year prorated warranty.

Not sure where the 10 years came from?

Six year is their standard warranty. Since 2012 (I think), they come with the 10 year extended warranty.

 

[Ambull01]

Six year is their standard warranty. Since 2012 (I think), they come with the 10 year extended warranty.

Just saw that lol. That sounds like a great deal then if there's no additional cost involved. I don't understand why they wouldn't just offer the 10 year warrant outright for all newer stoves sold?

So now I need to figure out the life of a cat. Assuming a person follows burning guidelines put out by the manufacture and not act like a dumb ass do people really get around 10 years useful service life? If so, then the warranty becomes a non-issue.

 

[CTYank]

There are some potentially useful discussions of cat long-term behavior on another site I can't mention. Something to do with "____Wood- ________ Club" if you follow my drift.

Tom Morrissey at Woodstock has written some interesting articles re cat/non-cat stoves and emissions. Woodstock's Hybrid stove reportedly works very well as a non-cat stove (at higher outputs) and as a cat at lower outputs. Not all black & white.