Catalytic vs. Secondary Burners

[Iron Head]

What are your thoughts on this two types and the advantages/disadvantages of them both?
When I was out shopping for my new insert, the local shop told me to stay away from catalytic burners.
I'm very happy with my non-catalytic.

 

[SierraWoodsman]

CAT VS. Non CAT

My Vote Is for a Well Designed Catalytic, such as a Blaze King. Reasons Why?... Longer Burntimes for one. Easily 12 hours even with pine. Very efficient operation & more "even" heat, you can turn down the thermostat and just keep the house cozy for long periods of time and still maintan efficency without a "smoldering fire". Both produce beautiful fires but I've noticed that my woodcutting partner uses almost twice the wood I do using his EPA certified Non-catalytic stove heating a similer sized house. Buying a new cat every 3 or 4 years costing close to $200 is the only downside I see. The way I see it that means you spend less time, money, and effort chopping, hauling, stacking, moving, and loading wood for your stove, All that pays for it's self in the long run with a Catalytic. Here's a informational Video: Blaze King Industries

 

[Misfit138]

...Buying a new cat every 3 or 4 years costing close to $200 is the only downside I see..[/url]

I disagree with your conclusion based on the time and money spent on a new catalyst; I prefer the simplicity of non-cat. For me it's just one less thing to worry about replacing.
My stove is a Country S160, and burns just about as clean as the cleanest cat stoves, and creates virtually zero creosote and very, very little carbon in my installation.

In my opinion, if you practice good techniques with dry fuel, and keep your flue as straight and as short as possible (all considerations for code and good draft, etc.) then a non-cat can perform about as well or better than a cat stove all other factors being equal.
I think you will find that much of the experience and successes/failures also come down to build quality of the stove itself. Country makes an excellent product, but they are very expensive. My local guy says he sells less than one a year around here due to the high price tags.

 

[logbutcher]

Here we go....again. Let's talk from real world experience with both kinds of stoves.

We heat a ~ 1800 ft² well insulated, self-built home with two wood stoves heating similar sized areas. The cat stove, a VC Encore has been working 24/7 (winter) since 2001. A non-cat Jotul Oslo for the past 5 years. No central heating or any auxiliary fossil heater on such as "set for 65 F ".
The Encore is the third Encore used since 1989 having rebuilt (unfortunately) 2. When not overseas, we've been fortunate to be able to use wood stoves since the late 70's.

There are a few quality manufacturers of cat stoves such as Woodstock in N.H. The principles of cat stoves are simple: get the noble metal(s) in the cat to ignite like your catalytic converter in the exhaust system, then thru various damping paths, the gases are "reburnt", recirculating the heat, then sent to their clean death up your flue ( no banjo comments please :jester. Cat wood stoves usually have a thermostatic air control that can be nearly shut completely off, and usually a thermostatic secondary air control in order to keep the cat "lit" with O2 (air). There is an extra step in the burn cycle to get the cat up to temperature ~1200 F. It is this last extra process in using the stove that users (us) either didn't do right, or found to be too much effort. The wood stove industry is tiny. They needed to market to consumers who wanted simple. Cat stoves are complex and high maintenance IF things are not right.
Ergo, the non-cat development in the 90's to reach clean burns mandated by the EPA here and pollution agencies in other countries.

Non-cat stoves are simpler, user friendly in that there is one air control. The recirculating and reburn of the incomplete combustion is done by heating up burn tubes. Also the air control is a mommie device: not too much primary air, AND not too little. The non cat burns faster in our experience. No cat to replace or clean. Although, the "burn tubes" do wear.

Result from the two kinds of stoves after 5 years, and perhaps 30+ cords : the cat Encore puts out ( no banjo comments:jester more heat, same BTUs for similar space; with similar mass and fireboxes, the Encore uses less wood. How much less ? A ballpark estimate is +/- 2/3 of the wood used by the Oslo. Remember that the cat Encore ( Woodstock, Blaze King, etc...) can be damped way down ( no 80 hour burn in anyone's lifetime! ), and the cat will operate as it should for close to 10-12 hours heating. Any more than that is just a bed of cool coals ready for the next load.

Cats have a life of ~ 12,000 hours which for us is slightly over 2 seasons. For the extra BTUs, the ability to damp primary air way down, AND the savings of my back, it's a miniscule maintenance expense. It's like changing brake rotors, or cleaning your weapon.

JMNSHO

We use both kinds because....................just because.

 

[William Balaska]

I have both in vermont castings stoves, I like the noncat stove much better, less finnekey. The wood has to be perfect with the cat unit period. 12 hour burn times sounds like my central boiler, or a Blaze King salesman!

 

[Richard C]

Well, I vote for a non cat. I have never had a cat modle but have seen the replacement units and don't like the idea of something that will get clogged if the wood isn't dry enough. I'll wait to hear if there are others who speak well for them.

 

[SierraWoodsman]

Complex?.... Your kidding right?

I'm no blazeking salesman, just an owner that has seen both sides of the coin, and did his reasearch before buying.
Please don't get me wrong. There are some really great non-cat stoves out there (The Lennox country striker s160 being one of them, a good looking stove by the way), and as long are your happy with your stove and it does the job you expect it to perform-thats all that really counts, Right?

I'm quite sure there are many other owners here on AS that can confirm my 12hr statment. As for being too complex all I have to say is no way! the only thing you have to keep in mind with Catalytic is.

1: Start stove with a full load.
2: keep the bypass open until the Thermometer reaches 500 f (not 1200 as previously mentioned.)
once the cat is up to temp you are home free. Thats about it.


All the other prerequisites such as: dry firewood, clean chiminey, Proper draft...etc are the same good practices as with any stove.
Once the cat is up to temp adjust the thermostat to where it is comfortable. Enjoy the heat....your done for the night. No more getting up @ 3am unless your old like me and have to get up to use the restroom.

 

[Encore]

We have the Encore non cat and love it. I enjoy the simplicity of use, easy for my wife to use. I still wait for the stove to hit about 500 before I hit the damper to engage the second burn. Just seems to run more smoothly that way

We have some friends who have the Dutchmen Cat stove and love it as well.

Like stated above , if your stove runs good for you and it heats your home, I think you're good to go. Seems like both cat and non cat are great, just depends on your experience level maybe? As well as your needs.

We are heating a 1600 sq ft home that is well insulated and ranch style so it's easy to heat.

 

[logbutcher]

Well, we now have another cherry Blaze King enthusiast new with wood stoves, cat or non-cat. Expert.

Sierra: if you stick your little finger into a cat :msp_scared usually done with a very high temperature probe thermometer as we used with early cats ) you will find before the finger incinerates, that the platinum or paladium coating that make s the cat operate IS AT LEAST 1200 F. The "500F " Blaze King recommends is the TEMPERATURE ON THE STOVE, not in the cat. This is how most of us who have used cat stoves for decades have monitored the cat ready to bypass/damp into cat mode. Nothing new or unique or magic. Probe tips burn out after awhile, so the makers spec stove top temp for the lighting off.

You may want to read Blaze King's OEM sheet or any manufacturer ( Sud Chemie, older Corning) of catalytic converters to understand how they do their magic. It is the high temperature of the noble metals ( read: pladium or platinum )in wood stove or vehicle that reburns incomplete combusted gases. Damn boy, it's not rocket science.

What's this thing about Blaze King anyhow ? Gee, it may cure cancer like the MS362 or 346XP or Glock 19. It's a wood stove.

I'm going to the sauce, then practice my banjo.:beated:

"PLATINUM" Platinum . Sorry Sierra. BTW: how's that finger ?

 

[Iron Head]

I'm no blazeking salesman, just an owner that has seen both sides of the coin, and did his reasearch before buying.
Please don't get me wrong. There are some really great non-cat stoves out there (The Lennox country striker s160 being one of them, a good looking stove by the way), and as long are your happy with your stove and it does the job you expect it to perform-thats all that really counts, Right?

I'm quite sure there are many other owners here on AS that can confirm my 12hr statment. As for being too complex all I have to say is no way! the only thing you have to keep in mind with Catalytic is.

1: Start stove with a full load.
2: keep the bypass open until the Thermometer reaches 500 f (not 1200 as previously mentioned.)
once the cat is up to temp you are home free. Thats about it.


All the other prerequisites such as: dry firewood, clean chiminey, Proper draft...etc are the same good practices as with any stove.
Once the cat is up to temp adjust the thermostat to where it is comfortable. Enjoy the heat....your done for the night. No more getting up @ 3am unless your old like me and have to get up to use the restroom.

I do those exact things with my non-cat.

 

[logbutcher]

We have the Encore non cat and love it. I enjoy the simplicity of use, easy for my wife to use. I still wait for the stove to hit about 500 before I hit the damper to engage the second burn. Just seems to run more smoothly that way

We have some friends who have the Dutchmen Cat stove and love it as well.

Like stated above , if your stove runs good for you and it heats your home, I think you're good to go. Seems like both cat and non cat are great, just depends on your experience level maybe? As well as your needs.

We are heating a 1600 sq ft home that is well insulated and ranch style so it's easy to heat.

Many many complaints about the newer VC Everburn non cat system Encore.

Can we have a review of your stove ? How used ? How often ? Wood type ? Any problems with "glowing" cast parts of the stove ?
Thanks.
LB

 

[CrappieKeith]

I'm a bit confused..ok it's Monday morning:bang:
Some of the posters are talking about tubes...for gasification..if so...the idea of burning off smoke is the bottom line in making those other 30-40% of the available btu's.
So to have a gasser or a cat system you should be making all of the btu's in a lb of wood. That of coarse will vary with moisture in the wood.

Yet this is not the end all in this convo...you've got draft speeds/flue gas temps,thermal mass and heat exchanger surface area to think about.

It's sort of funny how we all take different roads to get to the same place.

 

[Chris-PA]

I'm a bit confused..ok it's Monday morning:bang:
Some of the posters are talking about tubes...for gasification..if so...the idea of burning off smoke is the bottom line in making those other 30-40% of the available btu's.
So to have a gasser or a cat system you should be making all of the btu's in a lb of wood. That of coarse will vary with moisture in the wood.

Yet this is not the end all in this convo...you've got draft speeds/flue gas temps,thermal mass and heat exchanger surface area to think about.

It's sort of funny how we all take different roads to get to the same place.

Wait, you mean one size doesn't fit all? That just cannot be - everyone must do exactly what I did so as to confirm that I am just the smartest, bestest thing out there.

 

[Dalmatian90]

Gee, it may cure cancer like the MS362 or 346XP or Glock 19

Silly boy. You can only cure cancer with the combination of a Dolmar 7900 and a Fiskars Super Splitter.

 

[CrappieKeith]

Wait, you mean one size doesn't fit all? That just cannot be -

That's what she said...

 

[Encore]

Many many complaints about the newer VC Everburn non cat system Encore.

Can we have a review of your stove ? How used ? How often ? Wood type ? Any problems with "glowing" cast parts of the stove ?
Thanks.
LB

Sure thing!

We bought it last year when we bought our new house. It's got an 8" flue that goes straight up through the roof. I can honestly say we've never had glowing parts.

We burn wood that's been split and stacked for a year or close to it. Oak, maple, hickory, cherry and black walnut are the most common.

When I light a fire, I let the stove get to about 500-550 griddle temp and then I close the big damper. The stove will drop down to around 450 or so initially and then get back up to around 500 as the coal bed gets deeper.

When the stove is running at 450-500 we get literally no smoke out of the chimney (visible) just heat waves.

If I load the stove up after getting it nice and hot and then close the air control damper about 80-90% of the way (I dont like closing it all the way) I have gotten 8-10hr burn times depending on the type of wood we have in there. Burn time meaning enough coals that when I get home I can throw some wood in there and manipulate the draft a little and be good to go in about 25min.

I clean the stove completely about twice a year. I take the stack that is inside the house, off the stove after brushing the chimney and I stick a flexible vacume hose down the sides of the secondary burn chamber (had to rig a small hose up so that it could fit all around back there) to clean things up. I don't usually get much but I do get a little bit of very fine ash.

We've never had problems with draft, glowing parts or anything. Stove performs exactly as VC claimed it would.

I'm interested in the problems others are having though. I realize not every stove is going to be created the same, but other than glowing parts what problems are people having? What causes the glowing parts?

Sorry for hijacking the thread. I probably should have just created a new thread.

 

[Misfit138]

... There are some really great non-cat stoves out there (The Lennox country striker s160 being one of them, a good looking stove by the way),

Thanks, glad you like it.
As I have pushed past middle age I am becoming a bit 'set in my ways', though, and simplicity is one of my sticking points I suppose. So if someone asks me, I would give my opinion and substantiate it by my adherence to the 'keep it simple' mantra.
Both my cousins have cat inserts and they love them, but they don't mind fiddling with them..and they do require some fiddling..and a little extra attention to detail and maintenance. Since I crave simplicity, a high-quality non-cat is better for my needs, and therefore better overall in my opinion; after brushing the flue, shoveling out the ash and touching up any scratches in the paint, I am done for the season.

and as long are your happy with your stove and it does the job you expect it to perform-thats all that really counts, Right?..

Yes, well said. This is the bottom line.

 

[Chip_365]

Fiddling? I've been using a Blaze King stove with a cat as my only heat source here in the Canadian north, for 7 mths or more each year, for the last 6 years, & I haven't EVER fiddled, touched or cleaned the cat & it looks & burns like it always has. I burn as per the manual & EASILY get 12+ hr burns except below -25 C, & not even burning a full load on warmer days. We had -23 C the other night, & got 12 hrs. no problem, & the stove was hot, not just faint coals. I burn pine 90% of our long winter. My house is 1800 sq ft, stove is in the basement & there are 2 levels above that. Chimney is 25 ft long. I'm also off the grid & use the woodstove to cook my foods & meals, morning coffee, etc., so I rely on my woodstove to be in excellent working order or else I'd be in trouble, a lot of trouble if I got snowed in & the temps plummeted. I also don't burn more than a couple of cords a season.

So not all catalytic burners need fiddling or are complicated. Blaze Kings certainly don't. My catalyst is 6 yrs. old too. I can't think of anything simpler & with excellent performance. I don't see a need to change mine out after 2 seasons of 6+ mths x 24 hrs of use or after even 6 seasons of full time use.

 

[logbutcher]

Fiddling? I've been using a Blaze King stove with a cat as my only heat source here in the Canadian north, for 7 mths or more each year, for the last 6 years, & I haven't EVER fiddled, touched or cleaned the cat & it looks & burns like it always has. I burn as per the manual & EASILY get 12+ hr burns except below -25 C, & not even burning a full load on warmer days. We had -23 C the other night, & got 12 hrs. no problem, & the stove was hot, not just faint coals. I burn pine 90% of our long winter. My house is 1800 sq ft, stove is in the basement & there are 2 levels above that. Chimney is 25 ft long. I'm also off the grid & use the woodstove to cook my foods & meals, morning coffee, etc., so I rely on my woodstove to be in excellent working order or else I'd be in trouble, a lot of trouble if I got snowed in & the temps plummeted. I also don't burn more than a couple of cords a season.

So not all catalytic burners need fiddling or are complicated. Blaze Kings certainly don't. My catalyst is 6 yrs. old too. I can't think of anything simpler & with excellent performance. I don't see a need to change mine out after 2 seasons of 6+ mths x 24 hrs of use or after even 6 seasons of full time use.

The original OEM of wood cats was Corning, since sold to other makers Chip. My experience with cats in 3 stoves since '89 has been that the operational life of a ceramic cat, now there are metal based ones, is around 12,000 hours of use. The noble metal wears out, the ceramic grid cracks, and/or the mechanical structure of the cat deteriorates. I've replaced 4 in that period. The cat in the VC Encore now is a new metal based cat.

So some questions: have you checked that the 6 year cat is actually lighting off ( put in some wet, semi-seasoned or green wood on coals, run out in your -20C weather with layers on :wink2:, and after damping, if you have clear smoke, it's good to go ) ? Got a probe into the cat to monitor temps ? You obviously use well seasoned wood. If so, the fires are burning clean without the cat operating....a possibility. Remember, even vehicle exhaust catalysts wear out after years of running.

That's minimal heating BTW for you, compared to many of us in colder climes, using ~ 2 cords of pine for a 1800 ft² home. For example, our ~ 1800 ft² place needs at least 6 real cords of hardwoods (Red Maple, Paper Birch, smaller amounts of Red Oak and Ash ) to heat 99 44/100 %, 24/7 with 2 stoves. I can understand how your cat still does the job.

B.C. climate is supposed to be temperate, not often averaging below 0 C. Where, except in high elevations are you getting -20 C ?

 

[logbutcher]

Sure thing!

We bought it last year when we bought our new house. It's got an 8" flue that goes straight up through the roof. I can honestly say we've never had glowing parts.

We burn wood that's been split and stacked for a year or close to it. Oak, maple, hickory, cherry and black walnut are the most common.

When I light a fire, I let the stove get to about 500-550 griddle temp and then I close the big damper. The stove will drop down to around 450 or so initially and then get back up to around 500 as the coal bed gets deeper.

When the stove is running at 450-500 we get literally no smoke out of the chimney (visible) just heat waves.

If I load the stove up after getting it nice and hot and then close the air control damper about 80-90% of the way (I dont like closing it all the way) I have gotten 8-10hr burn times depending on the type of wood we have in there. Burn time meaning enough coals that when I get home I can throw some wood in there and manipulate the draft a little and be good to go in about 25min.

I clean the stove completely about twice a year. I take the stack that is inside the house, off the stove after brushing the chimney and I stick a flexible vacume hose down the sides of the secondary burn chamber (had to rig a small hose up so that it could fit all around back there) to clean things up. I don't usually get much but I do get a little bit of very fine ash.

We've never had problems with draft, glowing parts or anything. Stove performs exactly as VC claimed it would.

I'm interested in the problems others are having though. I realize not every stove is going to be created the same, but other than glowing parts what problems are people having? What causes the glowing parts?

Sorry for hijacking the thread. I probably should have just created a new thread.

No apologies, this IS a thread about cat vs non-cat.
The complaints about the VC Everburn stoves are posted on hearthnet...that's my only source. Apparently the reburning path in the stove creates an overburn in the rear plates that according to some owners, glows red.
Glad to hear that your Encore does what it should.
Appreciate the response.