Checking Chain Brake? Also, new logger questions

[Canyon Angler]

Thanks, guys.

Northmanlogger, is the Coos Bay method the first one shown in the video (that I guess you made) at



If so, is the purpose of the side cuts so that you have less wood to cut, start to finish, on the final cut ... so that you can get the cut done before the tree has a chance to start leaning and possibly barber chair?

I've got a fairly small saw (muffler modded MS361 that I use with a long bar and a skip chain on big trees) and I'm a rank amateur at falling, so I kinda like the idea of that strap of wood in tension keeping the tree upright until you get your hinge thickness right and then cut the "strap" with the bore cut method...and I'm not on the clock...but I can see where the boring method would slow you professionals down.

Madhatter, I guess I've already used the "no face" method on small blowdowns, now that I think about it. Your explanation helps a lot.

I'll get and post some pics of that scary hanging tree soon. Not sure I want to get near it long enough to cut it but if I can't pull it down, I might have to. I'll wait to see what you guys think from the photos, though. Thanks again.

 

[northmanlogging]

Yup and yup

Coos either a triangle or T shape for the hold wood. I've even just nosed one side off then torched the rest off.

Ms361 is plenty of saw up to like a 28" bar.

 

[Westboastfaller]

Madhatter- Thanks, I googled coos bay and cut around falling technique, and found an old thread here at arboristsite that talked about a "no face" cut ... but the pics had all disappeared. I'll dig into it more.



Really appreciate all the advice.

Yeah...Bitzer said that was a pre chainsaw technique. makes sense. Hard to use the back strap technique with axes and hand saws. Like Madhatte said stay away from it. I don't use an undercut on big old Cedar to delay the forward lean if its been heavily brushed naturally ... er....ummm...otherwise . that's not for joes. If a tree blows up on you then you messed up. Ignorance is neither an excuse or an explanation at that point. Foresight should be 20/20

 

[Canyon Angler]

Thanks, Westboastfaller.

I guess the biggest reason I want to use the bore cut technique, and this is probably a discussion for another thread, is because the falling technique they teach, and that you guys use, doesn't make sense to me geometrically or mathematically if the tree is perfectly straight and plumb, and if the face cut wedge you take out only goes 1/4 or 1/3 through the tree's diameter. See below:

I know this is kind of dumb, like the engineers who say that bumblebees shouldn't be able to fly, because it obviously works day-in and day-out, but what drives me nuts is that it just doesn't make sense to me WHY it works. It seems like if the wood supporting the tree is to the right of the center of gravity, the tree should want to fall to the LEFT, not to the right. The kerf should want to close. Yet it apparently works, even on perfectly straight and plumb trees. Can anyone tell me why, or tell me where I'm not thinking about it right?

 

[Canyon Angler]

To boil it down, here's diagram 3 above, simplified:

Why does this fall to the right instead of to the left?

 

[Bwildered]

To boil it down, here's diagram 3 above, simplified:

Why does this fall to the right instead of to the left?

It can't, the only way it can is if the COG is to the right of the centreline of the hinge.

 

[Canyon Angler]

Thanks, Bwildered. So the error in my understanding is that this will NOT work on a perfectly plumb and straight tree...?

Or does taking out the face wedge cause the tree to begin to lean a little bit?

And/or will it only work with wedges on a plumb, straight tree?

Also, maybe, I was thinking that as you make the back cut, and more and more of the weight of the tree is transferred to the hinge wood, maybe the fibers of the hinge wood begin to crush and shear to the right (since on a Humboldt face cut wedge, there's nothing below and supporting the hinge to the right) and the weight of the tree begins to bend those hinge wood fibers over toward the right and the whole mass wants to kind of "slide" down the angled slope where the wedge was removed...? Maybe?

Since I'm not doing a clear cut, in many cases, I won't have a choice which direction to fall a tree. I'll need to drop it between other trees, possibly against a slight lean.

I hope this isn't like going to an AA meeting and sharing "Why AA doesn't work for me"...

 

[northmanlogging]

Its not exactly magic.

deeper face helps the trees balance shift ever so slightly in a positive direction, talking a few inches at the top, which could be several hundred pounds.

The other factor is if your watching a bunch of youtube vids they don't show all the factors, a lot of them are gee wizz look what I can do stuff, They have eyeballed the tree and determined it will go where they want, or just cut it in direction of lean.

What they teach and what actually works are often 2 different things, a deeper face as in not quite half the diameter gives better results across the spectrum, the old shallow face is a throw back to when the face was put in by axes, same with a standard face vs humboldt, anyone swingin an axe all day isn't going to waste any more energy then necessary, when you can switch to the hand saw and get decent results.

Anyway... as for chairing, many different causes, but main one in my opinion is stalling, be it from the face closing, or too much hold wood, or mismatched face cuts, something happens tree stalls or slows down, before the hold wood is weak, and that sends a shock through the butt, causing a chair.

The other reason is severe leaners with just too much weight going the wrong way.

 

[Bwildered]

Thanks, Bwildered. So the error in my understanding is that this will NOT work on a perfectly plumb and straight tree...?

Or does taking out the face wedge cause the tree to begin to lean a little bit?

And/or will it only work with wedges on a plumb, straight tree?

Also, maybe, I was thinking that as you make the back cut, and more and more of the weight of the tree is transferred to the hinge wood, maybe the fibers of the hinge wood begin to crush and shear to the right (since on a Humboldt face cut wedge, there's nothing below and supporting the hinge to the right) and the weight of the tree begins to bend those hinge wood fibers over toward the right and the whole mass wants to kind of "slide" down the angled slope where the wedge was removed...? Maybe?

Since I'm not doing a clear cut, in many cases, I won't have a choice which direction to fall a tree. I'll need to drop it between other trees, possibly against a slight lean.

I hope this isn't like going to an AA meeting and sharing "Why AA doesn't work for me"...

You'll probably want to start drinking heavily soon , wedges are the sure fire way of getting the tree to fall in the direction you want, they defy gravity.

 

[northmanlogging]

Learn to use an axe or plumb bob to determine actual lean vs perceived lean. I like an axe, pinch the handle so the head is hanging down, then sight up the handle at the tree from roughly the base area... looking up the stem, or rest the head in your palm and let the handle follow the stem, and see which way it wants to fall. (hint this works better with a straight handle)

Plumb bob is more or less the same thing, but more **** to carry and get lost.

Check it from a minimum of 2 sides, so you get a 3 dimensional idea as to how it leans. After just a few trees you will no longer be able to see a perfectly straight tree ever again...

 

[hseII]

Check it from a minimum of 2 sides, so you get a 3 dimensional idea as to how it leans. After just a few trees you will no longer be able to see a perfectly straight tree ever again...

This.

 

[Canyon Angler]

Man, this is great info, thanks a million Northmanlogger and everyone. I had a feeling that "1/4 to 1/3 of the diameter for the face cut wedge" was an ideal rather than a rule, and your comments confirm that. And it makes sense why they would do that in the axe days. And I guess it doesn't take too many branches and limbs to shift the CoG even on a tree that appears plumb...

(I try to stay away from youtube for this kind of thing...too many butchers like me out there making videos...)

Thanks again. I'll start using that "axe plumb bob" technique.

 

[bitzer]

It's not often that a tree is perfectly balanced. If you've ever cut a spar you know it's hard to put them on the ground with just cuts because there is nothing to help motivate them. Unless you put a really deep face in to get past the center of gravity. You can saw lean into trees, that is to say cause the tree to lean forward more by making the face deeper or nipping at the hinge when you know it should sit ahead. There's also wind at play aside from the trees lean, crown balance/weight etc. It really takes stump time to figure these things out.

If I were you I'd start small and keep your faces super clean. Palm a wedge in each tree. Take your time. On smaller trees you can back cut first so there's room to put a wedge in etc.

Is this a pine stand you're thinking or just pine mixed with hardwoods? First thinnings in small diameter pine are not fun to hand cut.

Understanding the compression and tension wood and where it is in the tree is a big part in understanding and controlling the tree as well as how not to chair them.

 

[Trx250r180]

This^^^^^^^^^^ Keep your face cuts clean ,this means do not overcut one way or the other ,an overcut is called a dutchman ,if you do a dutchman type cut it can cause the tree to turn on you and not go where its aimed ,i don't think anyone has mentioned the sights on the saw ,on your 361 there is a black line on top of the orange plastic that follows down the sides on the sprocket cover and recoil cover ,its like a sight on a gun ,when your bar is in the face cut look down the line ,that's the direction the tree will go ,you can also use the sight on bigger trees when can't see the other side to help line up your back cut to the face .on the dutchman ,if you have a leaner you can purposely put one in if want to swing the tree away from the lean ,but that's more advanced stuff ,the coos bay is a good cut for leaner's ,unless ,the center has rot then your hinge can fail ,then better is to bore it ,on your bore if cutting the release strap cut in line or below your cut ,if cut the strap above the cut when it pops it could rip the saw out of your hands . if in question about rot in the center ,bore into the tree below where you are felling it and feel the chips ,if wet are ok ,if dry and brown ,bore it .

 

[Westboastfaller]

It will sit back "skybound " unless you are using the wind or a drop strap for back leaning trees which would be used in conjunction with a bigger forward leaning tree to break approx 6 in of vertical holding wood and 1 1/5 in deep approx. It will " barberchair" up 6" to the bore cut. You still need to bore or use wedges though to use either of those techniques to push a tree. There are tricks experience brings like falling to the east in areas when possible or allowing for hill pull or branch weight. I think you are thinking too literally when NM said good fallers hardly ever use wedges.There are no chainsaw training standards that don't use wedges. An inexperienced faller will wedge a lot more but the tree still has to come over COG in both cases. The more experienced faller perhaps is productive but doesn't mean he is a good faller ether. It's just how we metric things. Very easy to get off on the wrong track. Treat it like we all have the same motorcycle as Robbie Kenivel. Are we going to jump 22 buses? some may jump a few but Brian will just polish his on Sundays.

 

[Trx250r180]

Yeah...Bitzer said that was a pre chainsaw technique. makes sense. Hard to use the back strap technique with axes and hand saws. Like Madhatte said stay away from it. I do it on big old Cedar to delay the forward lean if its been heavily brushed naturally ... er....ummm...otherwise . that's not for joes. If a tree blows up on you then you messed up. Ignorance is neither an excuse or an explanation at that point. Foresight should be 20/20

Does bc safe let you use a coos bay cut or do you have to bore everything ?

 

[Canyon Angler]

Thanks, guys.

Bitzer, it's mature SYP mixed with mostly mature WO, chestnut oak, live oak, sweet gum, red maple, some hickory, a bit of black cherry, ERC, holly and a bunch of other stuff. It's a nice stand. Unfortunately, pine bark beetles are moving south toward me, so I may be working against the clock in utilizing some of this loblolly pine. I've got some big ones, as well as (I believe) some longleaf YP that I'd like to convert to construction lumber for a barn/shop. One good thing is, I've learned a lot about tension/compression wood in cutting firewood, blowdowns, hangers, etc. But that can be hard for me to read on standing timber. I guess it all just takes stump time, as you said.

Brian, Thanks, that's helpful info, especially about the rot in the middle. That is fairly common here in the tidewater area, especially in maples and even oaks. Never thought about that cutting the strap above the cut making the saw kick back at you...thanks! Safety is really my #1 concern at this point, so I will probably try to err in the direction of "safer but slower" at least in the beginning, as you suggest, Westboastfaller.

Really picking up a lot of good tips here thanks to you all ... I'm going to save this to my hard drive for future reference.

 

[Westboastfaller]

Does bc safe let you use a coos bay cut or do you have to bore everything ?

They show the T-cut aswell the V-cut without nipping of the corners. it works good without cutting off the corners, as you know with the PNW hardwoods { with a good saw}. I cut the far side with the dogs in the point of The V, blind so I may cut off a corner or two . A BC faller only needs 3 good stumps out of 4 anyways plus he would be using the loophole of "overcoming a falling difficulty" as they are heavy leaners. If you had 100 leaners of say Alder to cut like in the swamps of the BC and WA valley lows then I think people could toe the line, I never found it hard to. Most of that is all property development hand falling. No Bc Faller supervisors or Certifier trainers and stumps are getting pulled behind you.

 

[northmanlogging]

They show the T-cut aswell the V-cut without nipping of the corners. it works good without cutting off the corners, as you know with the PNW hardwoods { with a good saw}. I cut the far side with the dogs in the point of The V, blind so I may cut off a corner or two . A BC faller only needs 3 good stumps out of 4 anyways plus he would be using the loophole of "overcoming a falling difficulty" as they are heavy leaners. If you had 100 leaners of say Alder to cut like in the swamps of the BC and WA valley lows then I think people could toe the line, I never found it hard to. Most of that is all property development hand falling. No Bc Faller supervisors or Certifier trainers and stumps are getting pulled behind you.

Folks is scared of alders, more or less for good reason... but if you treat em with a little respect and don't muck about on the stump, they generally behave. nip the off side, and torch em off...

 

[Westboastfaller]

Folks is scared of alders, more or less for good reason... but if you treat in with a little respect and don't muck about on the stump, they generally behave. nip the off side, and torch em off...

Yeah ..as long as you don't have an added wet snow load on them or more importantly..another tree leaning on it then i like to get up and personal. Like you did in the wild cherry vid. All from one side and ring out the sapwood but never adjust our dogs in the back cut pull. Never give up any of our advantages. I've had to cut like patches of 50 bent over with the lean because some prick hoe operator gets impatient and yanks out a half a dozen trees and leave them where I wouldn't have...with shaken dirt and rocks all over them. Turned out it was fun falling with the lean because its a speed thing. If you are not perfect then you have to trim out about 4ft at the butt. Very deadly without proper cuts, technique, power, speed and chain no matter who you are. I don,t take WILD cherry, Birch or 18" range Cottonwood lightly ether on the coast. Grows to quick.