Dent on Hinging

[Diver1]

Im going to apoloagize for jumping in here but I see this tread and the one I started on block notch as some what related. When your cutting you hinge in a triangle how do you calculate how steep to make the angles (how big a triangle)? Or in other words how thick on one side and how little ont the other? The reason I ask is this. In Ard's book he gives a reasonable acurate method for determining how to compensate for side lean. As I see it the triangle hinge is trial and error, experience, or guess work as to how to make the hinge to compensate for diferent degrees of lean.

Straighten me out if im all wrong.


thanks

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

The formulae must be exact, the amount of support and steering different for different weights, leans, speeds; etc. Really it is beyond me, especially all of the adjustments on the fly (said the spyder). So, i just let Nature do it!

The hinge pull and face pushes are passive, self adjusting forces; who's forces are set by the loads themselves. So, exactly, ya don't have to be exact, just allowing and maximizing at the right times, to allow things to work best, by some guesses i think, and lightly ushering your prey to target.

Realizing that any forces, can be set for or agianst you, and you have a say in that with your carving, that small changes can mean a lot from that command position. And that every force has an equal and opposite force that you can tap into, sometimes to balance the forces to your bidding instead of balancing to some other point. Nature is all about maintaining balance in all; by requiring it in every act.

Orrrrrr something like that!
:alien:

 

[murphy4trees]

Good question....
One way to start to get a feel is to run the tip through til it juts about meets the notch on the thin side of the hinge... then bring the body of the saw around to remove wood from the beefy side, until the tree goes....
Beranek has a picture of the "uneven hinge" on page 299 of "fundamentals of general tree work".. That should give you some idea of a good tapered hinge..

 

[Diver1]

Thanks Spyder, and Daniel

for the explanation, spydie do you moon-light as a physics teacher Your explanantions always take me a few reads to digest, but are on target.

Daniel; making the back cut as you have described is how I have allways done it when making a triangle hinge, but it is not always on the dime acurate thus the question about Ard's method.

thanks

 

[a_lopa]

not that i do them that regularly, bore cut will leave a v shaped holding wood anyway

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

The tensioned fibers against sidelean will always be the triangular pattern IMLHO, even within a common shaped 'strip' of hinge evenly across the face; i think the pattern of stress within the more rectangular common, strip hinge, will be a triangular hinge pattern. i think that eliminating the fibers from the lean side to make a triangular hinge pattern, works because now the force of the lean, pull of the line, push of the wedge (added together) is not wasted on flexing over those eliminated fibers, that don't return support for what they have cost the forces of bending them. Then the culmination of lean push and pull forcing hinge fibers to bend will leave more bent fibers in the leveraged positions, for more support i think.

The thin side of the tapered/ triangle hinge still constitutes support, as the compressed pivot that the tree sits on. The fat side the most leveraged positions of support. Seeing as each fiber is about as strong as the next, and Nature takes the path of least resistance, the most leveraged fibers (those furthest from pivot) will carry most of the load, as easiet option, there fore most stretched as in Hinge Forensics Thread . To take most advantage of the situation, the spread from pivot to leveraged fiber should be as long as possible, then as many fibers as possible in those positions i think.

In some harder sideleans, i try to be releasing fiber across as a chosen direction, rather than forward with saw. i cut the thin side of hinge first under the side lean, then perhaps end up in the same pattern working the fat side, but trying to get more of a drawing across direction of gradual re-lease, than forward. Direction of force is always so important, for their can be no force without it i think! Daniel's explanation was more clear as always, but both said, don't worry about it, Nature will take care of that part. Nature tries to take care of it anyway, even within other hinge patterns; i think this pattern (perhaps even center punched from face in right conditions) provides the greatest allowance for nature to do her thing, by working along with her.

Pic from TB.

 

[wiley_p]

A Dutchman is any alteration of standard face/backcut/holdingwood the step dutchman is easy to use the other "standard dutchmans swing quartercut are best left to true proffesionals after being taught by extremely competent fallers. I used to fire guys for using dutcmans I.ve only worked with one guy who used and explained and pulled the drops off just like he called. that is Jim Justus out of Forks WA he's 100 times the faller I'll ever be. I rarely employ dutchmans. The fundamentals work 99 percent of the time. What with some of the half explained tactics taught at Arbormaster it worrrys me a little that people are talking about using swing dutchmans, I'm preety sure one would have difficulty finding enough diameter in a lot of areas to pull it off anywaY.

 

[Gypo Logger]

99.9 % of Dutchmens are unintensional and serve no purpose when felling hardwoods. A Dutchman is nothing but a kerf acting as the notch.
A falling tree is much like a cupboard door on hinges- the mechanics are the same.
The ideal knotch suggests that the faller simply walks up to the tree, places the cuts in, walks away and the tree falls, but this isn't what happens. The faller should stay with the tree, sawing on it until the tree is totaly commited to it's direction of fall. In other words severing as much holding wood as possible while the tree is falling and can't change it's mind, much like in my video below of me dumping a 4" Red Oak.
John

 

[rbtree]

Nice 4 inch oak John.

Intentional Dutchmans are thoroughly covered in Dent's "Professional Timber Falling" Way outta my league.

 

[Gypo Logger]

Hi Roger, softwoods are much lighter and forgiving than hardwoods and can be commited further away from their natural lean than hardwoods can. Dent wrote a very good book, but I doubt he felled many hardwoods. He described the intentional Dutchman for leaners, but there are more effective and faster ways of dealing with leaners- for hardwood anyway.
Check out this movie, note the tree set back on the bar for an instant, just one more reason a wedge should be used. Trees are very forgiving. LOL
John

 

[murphy4trees]

That tree did not sit back... as it fell into the face the tip of the bar got pinched in the hinge fibers...

That said.. I must admit that I know very little about felling trees compared to a good logger...

 

[Gypo Logger]

Hey Daniel, I think there was a better chance of your ponytail pinching that bar than the way you described. LOL
The tree actually leaned towards me slightly as it fell forward, but was released as the backcut opened up..
John

 

[murphy4trees]

OK... my bad... but that still isn't sitting BACK is it????

 

[a_lopa]

you guys are to used to falling softwoods try a half dead fungi riddled hardwood throw your theorys out the window,experience counts

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i think the softwoods can have more elastic actions in the fibers making a ot of differance too.

If the rot makes the faces unsound/crumble, then i guess a Dutchman would be useless. But dead or brittle wood without the elasticity for good strong hinging, might still be sound enough to use some Dutch Step.

This is dangerous territory, mostly i seek lessons for cutting in tree from experiments and discussions.

Usually, Each side of the hinge pulls against the other, until the faces close, then the faces push against each other towards the center. A Dutch strategy i think causes early closing push across the face, or sometimes on just one side.

i use Dutchmans all the time climbing; simple, powerfull help with no extra tools. Scaling down from the huge leverage and weights of a full speeding tree to a mere limb does a lot for safety; but doesn't alter the ratio of power of the strategy to target IMLHO.

Sometimes i use it bucking when i have top compression, no wedge right there and want to play/examine these workings more closely when the oppurtunity arises.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i think that the Dutchman quanity is an element of the formulae of any felling; a constant componenet. It is just always adjusted down to zero as Gypo says; unless by error. This adjustment is so critical, so powerful; it can work both some 'miracles' and disasters; especially wielding all of the power produced by maximum speed X max. leverage x maximum weight that a massive tree can exert at once in felling; then double that as it meets it's equal and opposite reaction pushing back in the other face (on stump side)!

i use the Dutch steps in branches, limbs etc. in the air and in bucking; it is power to balance off the forces we contend with, freely available, in a self adjusting unit; IMLHO.

i look at gravity as an input force, hinging pulls and face pushes as 2 seperate machines the input force goes thru; to arrive tree at target as an output of that work achieved. i think that both the hinging and face slapping are leverageble machines; that ususally happen seperately in self balancing components. Whereby each face throws the tree to the opposite side, to balance into the center of the face, if there is side lean, that side will hit harder, to throw harder, to push to center automatically. But, taking out the hinge pulls, and face slaps that serve towards the SideLean (the self balancing componenets of the motion); then hybriding the hinge and face to pull and push against lean, at the same time, the whole time (instead of seperately) with no face or hinge pulls countering is achievable.

i think these same things are witnessable/usable if invoked correctly in rigging, climbing, bucking, polesawing etc. A lot can be learned closeup safely i think with just a handsaw on a small limb and pulling on the knotch at different angles as you backcut at different angles. For the elements are the same to scale, and can be learned at any point to understand the same principals at different levels.

The topic of a step in the face is deemed unusable because it happens lots by accident, and has so much power, that warnings are cast as it enters the the upper loading ranges of felling. but, this high leveraging machine action can be used safely at other parallel levels that don't invoke as high forces.

Orrrrrrrrrr something like that......
:alien:

 

[murphy4trees]

Here is a pic I was thinkning of publishing... what do you all think of it? I know there is at least one slight mistake, but the limb was maybe 8", so very forgiving.... I cut a lot of hinges that look like this these days... On smaller diameter stuff without a heavy side lean I'll take out up to half the hinge, leaving fibers only on the tensioned side of the hinge.

I AM just wondering fi you all see any prblems with the cut?

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i think cut is fine, niced stretched fibers; but why not go across the full face of the hinge; why use half of the wrench handle /prybar against a larger load you just made?

These are things i've asked myself playing around like this, trying to get good habits, and always set for lower loading/greater support to have as great a SWL as possible and good habits etc. etc. in case on a stupid day i miss calculate lean, wind, rot, target etc. all at once cuz RB took me to a 3 day bachelor party; and i have the most forgiveness werkin fer my stupid butt!

So i try to tilt the ratio of support to load my way as a strategy/habit to have. Gotta go, though bro, but here is step 1 to these thougths.

Take Care, Thanx for puzzle!

 

[murphy4trees]

why not go across the full face of the hinge

I always go across the full face of the hinge when working big wood or heavy side leans... however with smaller wood and less side lean, I like the pictured hinge.... there is not enough force to twist the hinge, so why do I need the full length... No pull line on this cut as it had a front lean too... so I just start the backcut, cutting at the angle seen in the picture and keep cutting 'til the tree starts to move... works well

When chunking down large side leaning pieces in 2' lengths I've used a 2"x2" hinge at the highest edge of the wood, which hold securely and is still easily broken by hand with a rocking motion...

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i do'em like that too here and there, but mostly try to polish skills, run the drill etc.

So my comments were to the usual maximizing etc.; pushing the envelope; so from that point to every once in awhile catch a glimpse of something else working in the formulae, ya might not have noticed otherwise, develop feel etc.

Also; i would have a concern about a published pic that maybe someone allowed their hinge to be similar to; even if that wasn't the topic of giving the pic. So, on that level; i had that concern, that everything should be set for a more common maximum; just for that extra level of care/SWL to that blind situation on y/our part.

i'm sure that you know, that i know, that you know; what you are doing; and that is comletely not the point bro.

In the spirit/compulsion of understanding and commanding these forces at evolving deeper levels; i offer this in comment/exam-eye-nation of all off balance pulls/leans to target (most in my world);and why not delivering to target can take away from the larger forces that you and the ground face in the massive tree's concussion. Using the pic etc. as base to apply the model on at different angles. If you can confidantly put'em down softer, then ya can put more of em down with less concern of damage etc.

And how this all slides into climbing, bucking cuts; using and becomning more familiar with one procedure that covers all of the different scenarios as one act; that becopmes a faster, more repetitve familiar procedure then with any cut.

"Pro-cedural", "Causation" and "Mechanical Analasys" are 3 of my favorite 'Dent Terms'.

Peace,
:alien: