ChrisF
ArboristSite Guru
Yep, definitely guilty of that one, although "interesting tree" means something "a tad" less hardcore than what you've felled.
Do you ever feel guilty dropping trees, especially big healthy ones?
- Thread starter KiwiBro
- Start date
Help Support Arborist Forum:
Yep, definitely guilty of that one, although "interesting tree" means something "a tad" less hardcore than what you've felled.
TreeClimber57
Addicted to ArboristSite
I think for the most part many of us would use some sort of criteria and judgment in what we cut, and as TimberMcPherson said, may even refuse to cut some for various reasons. And by doing so it shows a definite level of ethics and respect for a renewable resource; not simply harvesting everything until it is extinct.
Rule of thumb I think for most would be one or more of below is met:
a) tree is dead, dying or has fallen down in storm (or serious storm damaged)
b) tree is dangerous to property or persons
c) tree is in area where construction will be done - new building - roadway - etc. While I have seen some good trees go this way - if building permit has been issued nothing is going to stop it.
d) tree is put to good use - ie: firewood, lumber, etc and not simply wasted. We even try to get all small limbs into chips/mulch and ensure it is used as well.
Most of the people in here who do tree services professionally would adhere to the above I think. In fact any professional tree service who is part of ISA or TCIA has some of this covered in their code of ethics.
While both cover it in various wording, TCIA covers it best:
Arborists have the responsibility to provide professional care of trees for current and future generations. We pledge to be advocates and practitioners of the highest arboricultural standards and practices.
Frankly, a chainsaw to a tree is as a gun is to a wild animal.. care, respect and proper use should be considered when using.
While I do not think a tree has the intelligence or feelings of an animal; it is still a resource that we as humans need to properly and intelligently manage. Otherwise future generations will suffer for our stupidity. Oh there are some who think they will always be here, but our forefathers though the same about various species of animals, birds, reptiles, etc. Some now on the verge of extinction or already gone..
Enjoy your saw.. but use it will intelligence, respect and care..
Rule of thumb I think for most would be one or more of below is met:
a) tree is dead, dying or has fallen down in storm (or serious storm damaged)
b) tree is dangerous to property or persons
c) tree is in area where construction will be done - new building - roadway - etc. While I have seen some good trees go this way - if building permit has been issued nothing is going to stop it.
d) tree is put to good use - ie: firewood, lumber, etc and not simply wasted. We even try to get all small limbs into chips/mulch and ensure it is used as well.
Most of the people in here who do tree services professionally would adhere to the above I think. In fact any professional tree service who is part of ISA or TCIA has some of this covered in their code of ethics.
While both cover it in various wording, TCIA covers it best:
Arborists have the responsibility to provide professional care of trees for current and future generations. We pledge to be advocates and practitioners of the highest arboricultural standards and practices.
Frankly, a chainsaw to a tree is as a gun is to a wild animal.. care, respect and proper use should be considered when using.
While I do not think a tree has the intelligence or feelings of an animal; it is still a resource that we as humans need to properly and intelligently manage. Otherwise future generations will suffer for our stupidity. Oh there are some who think they will always be here, but our forefathers though the same about various species of animals, birds, reptiles, etc. Some now on the verge of extinction or already gone..
Enjoy your saw.. but use it will intelligence, respect and care..
Sagetown
Farmer and a STIHL
YES ! As of late that is. The desire to clean out a fence row is stronger than some beautiful magnificent red oak. My heart aches as I contemplate on taking them down.
TreeClimber57
Addicted to ArboristSite
I have to say I have no great affinity for Cottonwoods.
A friend has them lining her driveway (about 200m) and the sunny side of her dressage arena and I really want to play dominoes with them, particularly the ones on the arena as they are directly under a three phase powerline and will be growing into them come spring.
If they continue to grow where they are; and as described then they will need to be pruned on top to keep out of lines. And that over time in itself may have negative impact on the trees.
Too much pruning on top or topping will/may cause water sprouts which is another unwanted situation which will take energy away from rest of tree causing further issues down the road.
Therefore, removal of these as you suggested may be only viable option long term. It may simply be a case of a tree in the wrong place, having said that the tree was there before the power lines but you can not change that now.
On the other hand, in the right location they can be a long living and healthy tree -- at times in the right conditions living to 100 years or more.
NORMZILLA44
Addicted to ArboristSite
Been kind of sad about a few, for sure that just means you appreciate them, and have a concience. My friend owns a little ranch in the hills closer to the coast, in the west county we call it. When I first met him, and went up to his place my jaw dropped. I didnt know there was tan oak that big on the planet. I mean true old growth. I grew up around there saw nothing but straight tall ones, some had good girth, but these ones grow more in the the shape of a live oak, and huge. We were pretty sad because they were kileed off by the sudden oak death. So a couple we had to fall, because they were dead, and the wind would have blown them over on the house or vineyard. A few we left to go on there own. It was sad to see them die. I had one side job we were hired for a lady was worried about trees falling on a ranch road right of way. She dindt want to be sued by people,or liable for any trees down on lines. She had us cut a bunch of live oak, and black oak nice beautiful trees down. Because of the hillsides nothing could be slvaged they basically launched down hills. Some real nice trees that was a real bummer. Dindt feel good, but thats what she wanted. And at least the surrounding area had alot more that made it not as bad I guess.
CedarRock
ArboristSite Operative
I have had to pronounce eminent mortality on trees that look like they're going to die within a year. Now if I could just get the forest circus to agree I'd be fine with it. Lots of trees that looked like they wouldn't last through the season are gone. (Meaning other people get them)
Last edited:
dingeryote
Blueberry Baron
Nah!!!
Those that need to be dropped, get dropped.
Those that need longer to make lumber and BTU's stay.
Have cleared some fields for planting that did make me cringe a bit, on account of the land owner bieng a damn fool with no respect for the gift of all that wood. Nothing worse than seeing several hundred Cord of prime BTU's and lumber getting shoved into a pile and set to burning because it's cheaper and faster than processing it all.
Stay safe!
Dingeryote
Those that need to be dropped, get dropped.
Those that need longer to make lumber and BTU's stay.
Have cleared some fields for planting that did make me cringe a bit, on account of the land owner bieng a damn fool with no respect for the gift of all that wood. Nothing worse than seeing several hundred Cord of prime BTU's and lumber getting shoved into a pile and set to burning because it's cheaper and faster than processing it all.
Stay safe!
Dingeryote
Plant a tree to replace it and let someone else ponder the same question 100 years from now .
Several years ago there was a big local campaign to try and stop some logging in the view plane along the road ways in this area , a hurricane came through and knocked it all down . That just tells me that trees are meant to come down , no guilt .
If a few Firs are left, the area is not clear cut. Unless there is a serious storm, looking at those images, most of those Firs should survive. It takes as little as 2 Firs per acre to reseed an area. That site in your images seems to have plenty. So long as those Firs last long enough to reseed, their work is done. The wood you see 'wasted' is basically only good for firewood. What it does when left is return nutrients to the soil and help prevent erosion, as well as provide shelter for smaller animals.
Trees are a renewable resource. None of the trees I have cut were endangered. The only one I have felt reservation about was a 36" DBH Fir that was next to a guys house. It was a gorgeous Fir that had a very long life ahead of it. But the homeowner's wife was afraid of it dropping a big branch through the house since it was basically right up next to it and already dropping smaller branches upon it. I told them I would rather risk the roof, or trim the branches than drop such a beautiful tree in my yard. They disagreed. I eventually dropped it, and it's been in a few videos of mine. There's plenty more like that Fir, but it was sorta sad to see it go.
Trees are a renewable resource. None of the trees I have cut were endangered. The only one I have felt reservation about was a 36" DBH Fir that was next to a guys house. It was a gorgeous Fir that had a very long life ahead of it. But the homeowner's wife was afraid of it dropping a big branch through the house since it was basically right up next to it and already dropping smaller branches upon it. I told them I would rather risk the roof, or trim the branches than drop such a beautiful tree in my yard. They disagreed. I eventually dropped it, and it's been in a few videos of mine. There's plenty more like that Fir, but it was sorta sad to see it go.
then arounnd here they leave a few big firs in this clear cut, well within the end of the season they've all blown downI could see leaving a small block with a couple big trees, but when they clear cut and leave a few firs its just ridiculous, specially on the top of these hills wind will take em down in no time. then again the waste of wood here is just ridiclous. There should be at least several parks places to protect the big trees, but in the end if theres a big tree in a block well I dont think that tree is gonna feed a guys family, or put a roof over a familys head by standing there. I know the firs here are small compared to others, theyre just bigger than the pine here Woulda loaded the truck up with some nice rounds if we had the quad with us to get even close to some blown down firs
RandyMac
Stiff Member
An Arborist would have a closer relationship with the trees they work on, a completely different world compared to logging.
Sport falling is considered improper to say the least, often the tree is wasted, a thrill kill so to speak. In my case, I sought the biggest, nastiest trees I could find and called it training.
Sport falling is considered improper to say the least, often the tree is wasted, a thrill kill so to speak. In my case, I sought the biggest, nastiest trees I could find and called it training.
2yb3
ArboristSite Operative
this is on top of a hill, and yeah most of them are blown down now, also those firs arent for reseeding the area, call it selective, but when its miles and miles cut with just the odd fir here and there its clear cut, they wasted alot of wood as well.
I mainly cut Hackberry along a creek in the Flint Hills region of Kansas. Big and healthy to me is about 20 - 24 inches in diameter. Yeah kinda puny to some of ya I know. I use all I can of the tree, the rest becomes quail habitat. I dont feel guilty at all, its put to good use and gives me a good workout. Many of the trees I harvest are less than 20 inches in diameter. Personal use only, none sold for profit.
Ambull
OCD Muscle Saw Collector
I have over 100 acres that is woodlands, and I cut all my firewood from that. I try to cull the dead trees, the dying trees, and the unhealthy trees. I almost always pass on the healthy ones. It is tough, when you see a nice big ash that is perfectly straight, without a branch for the first 30 feet or so, right next to the trail, they are tempting......
At the risk of sounding as if I want to champion clear-cutting as a harvest method, I do feel obligated to point out that there is actually some pretty good science and long ground experience behind the method. Yes, it's ugly to see a new cut by a scenic route, but the fact is, Douglas-Fir is poorly shade-tolerant, and regenerates glacially slowly, if at all, in an understory. Further, the equipment used in yarder logging favors big areas for fast layouts. It's economical to clear-cut and replant, then thin as necessary, to ensure a future crop. My major concern remains soil and slope stability.
Back in the days when all slash was yarded to the landing and burned in the fall, a clear-cut was easier to move around in come spring, but all winter the topsoil was sluiced off the hillside into drainages below. Archimedes' Principle tells us that an object in water displaces its own volume, yes? Well, multiply that times a billion billion particles of soil over the entire regions, and you have rivers and dams choked with sediment, annual flooding in towns that seldom used to see it at all, and poor regeneration even after replanting (reprod surveys are as much about what needs RE-re-planted as they are about survival of the first round).
Leaving the slash on the ground where it lays mitigates these problems somewhat. First, the woody matter decays slowly enough to help hold the hillside more stable for those crucial first couple of winters. Second, the leafy matter decays quickly and offers a much-needed shot of soil nutrition. I know it's harder to plant in year-old slash -- it's even harder to do reprod surveys in 4-year-old slash because the little stuff is rotten enough that it won't support much weight any more (Mountaineers call the resultant maneuver "postholing") -- but if it results in a healthier forest in the long run, it is an improvement over older methods.
We're still learning. To be sure, a clear-cut isn't an ideal method, but it has its place and it has its reasons. Fortunately, trees are persistent beggars and grow in spite of us, and will continue to do so long after we're gone.
The EAB will probably make that temptation easier, unfortunately someday
o8f150
Tree Freak
personally i hate dropping live trees unless they are going to cause problems
Farmall Guy
ArboristSite Operative
I dropped several very nice hard maples, beach and cherry to make room for my house, hated to see them go but I had a few of the best ones milled up and will use them in my house. I gess for me its a give and take, I enjoyed seeing those big maples on the hill for years but I'll enjoy seeing them as paneling in my living room even more :msp_biggrin: Not to mention there wasnt any real choice as to where my house was going to go, either on that hill or in a mud hole :msp_rolleyes:
tdi-rick
Addicted to ArboristSite
Cheers for that.
I edited my post last night before I pressed 'submit reply' to protect the guilty.
The trees along the entrance road are looking good, except I am a bit worried as they seem to be prevalent to borer attack here, she's already lost the tops out of several near her garage during a wind storm six months ago and borers are obvious in a lot of them to my untrained eye.
The ones alongside the arena were deliberately planted under the existing power lines two years ago, knowing full well how tall they grow
(There was a regional garden competition about to get underway) and they've been watered ever since (specific dripper system)I warned her, her partner warned her, but neither of us have multiple Uni degrees to confirm our knowledge
TreeClimber57
Addicted to ArboristSite
Oh I do agree here, on other hand, presumably for the most part the trees a logger fells are still for one of the reasons I stated (or maybe a few more can be added).. but the wood typically is used for some benefical purpose and no wasted. And many loggers, I think, no longer clear cut but strive to maintain the resource for future harvesting.
KiwiBro
Mill 'em, nails be damned.
Thank you for your candid replies.
On Friday I looked at a felling job. Not many trees, maybe thirty, in about 11 acres. I walked around with the PO who's reason for the felling was to 'provide more grazing for our horses', of which they have just three, and 'not for development'. Probably over half of the land is pasture anyway, so the reason just didn't seem to gel with me, but hey, that's fine, I'm not the PO nor privy to all the factors, so it's not for me to make those decisions or justify them.
Every tree we passed, he wanted down. First tree an approx 80 yo native Kauri doing surprisingly well out in the open when I always thought they did much better under a canopy striving upwards for light. There was just no way I was going to be part of chopping that down. Next a bunch of native cabbage trees, and again I couldn't bring myself to agree to cutting those down.
But here's what I found kinda interesting upon reflection. We then came to a 4'DBH Cypress (Macrocarpa) hard up against another Kauri and I thought to myself, fine, let's drop that big mac and let that Kauri have a better shot. Both of these trees are doing OK but would do a little better if the other wasn't there I think. Both, in the natural order of things, have about as much right as the other to be there but here was the PO and I deciding which one will live and which will die and the fact one was a native meant it could stay.
We then get to an old fence row of some quite big mac and they can go. I got a buzz thinking about dropping those big trunks at the time but got to thinking they only take about 50m2 at the most of his grazing land yet provide 5 times that as shelter for his horses and there'll be SFA shelter left by the time I'm done if we have our way.
Another good tree, this time a Euc, looking healthy and as if it's enjoying life he wants gone too. I think at the time, 'would be a buzz to drop that and get some great firewood from it', but looking at the picture I took, it seems such a shame to drop a healthy tree like this when the reason just doesn't seem to stack up.
We get to a stand of native regenerating bush and I just say there's no way that can come out, even though the BTU's in the Kanuka would be impressive and easily obtained.
I'm no arborist, so it will be up to the council and their consulting arborist to decide what is allowed to go, but this job has me pondering the justifications the PO and myself came up with within ourselves and outwardly for the dropping of trees that are lovely and healthy in their own right and would probably have been there before we were even born. And yeah, I know I won't feel guilty on the day dropping those trees, because the buzz and concentration needed will block that out but I'm already getting pangs of guilt and I know seeing pictures of them on the ground later will leave a guilty feeling. I was wondering whether anyone else feels that and how they justify their decisions in light of that.
The consulting arborist may turn around and say they have too much scenic amenity value or some such to the community to drop and that will be that, but the job has raised a few interesting internal conflicts for me, for which I think I'll be grateful in the long run.
View attachment 183189
On Friday I looked at a felling job. Not many trees, maybe thirty, in about 11 acres. I walked around with the PO who's reason for the felling was to 'provide more grazing for our horses', of which they have just three, and 'not for development'. Probably over half of the land is pasture anyway, so the reason just didn't seem to gel with me, but hey, that's fine, I'm not the PO nor privy to all the factors, so it's not for me to make those decisions or justify them.
Every tree we passed, he wanted down. First tree an approx 80 yo native Kauri doing surprisingly well out in the open when I always thought they did much better under a canopy striving upwards for light. There was just no way I was going to be part of chopping that down. Next a bunch of native cabbage trees, and again I couldn't bring myself to agree to cutting those down.
But here's what I found kinda interesting upon reflection. We then came to a 4'DBH Cypress (Macrocarpa) hard up against another Kauri and I thought to myself, fine, let's drop that big mac and let that Kauri have a better shot. Both of these trees are doing OK but would do a little better if the other wasn't there I think. Both, in the natural order of things, have about as much right as the other to be there but here was the PO and I deciding which one will live and which will die and the fact one was a native meant it could stay.
We then get to an old fence row of some quite big mac and they can go. I got a buzz thinking about dropping those big trunks at the time but got to thinking they only take about 50m2 at the most of his grazing land yet provide 5 times that as shelter for his horses and there'll be SFA shelter left by the time I'm done if we have our way.
Another good tree, this time a Euc, looking healthy and as if it's enjoying life he wants gone too. I think at the time, 'would be a buzz to drop that and get some great firewood from it', but looking at the picture I took, it seems such a shame to drop a healthy tree like this when the reason just doesn't seem to stack up.
We get to a stand of native regenerating bush and I just say there's no way that can come out, even though the BTU's in the Kanuka would be impressive and easily obtained.
I'm no arborist, so it will be up to the council and their consulting arborist to decide what is allowed to go, but this job has me pondering the justifications the PO and myself came up with within ourselves and outwardly for the dropping of trees that are lovely and healthy in their own right and would probably have been there before we were even born. And yeah, I know I won't feel guilty on the day dropping those trees, because the buzz and concentration needed will block that out but I'm already getting pangs of guilt and I know seeing pictures of them on the ground later will leave a guilty feeling. I was wondering whether anyone else feels that and how they justify their decisions in light of that.
The consulting arborist may turn around and say they have too much scenic amenity value or some such to the community to drop and that will be that, but the job has raised a few interesting internal conflicts for me, for which I think I'll be grateful in the long run.
View attachment 183189
Last edited:
