drunks and gypsies????

[matty f]

disagree..any fool can fell a tree,drunk or what ever....
Takes a better climber to do a good 15% reduction on a massive tree.....
being said i likes my drink to much!think a lot of tree guys do but with a bad hang over whats the point?? climbing becomes sloppy and dangerous just makes you wanna take stupid uncalculated risks.
last time i did a big take down with a hang over it was embarrisising..when i first started i thought it made me climb better!!!!what crap!maybe it gave me some confidence to become a better climber but luckily i never killed any one or myself..also had to let climbers go who where lazy and nearly killed people injuring them selfs and others badly and damaged property who thought they probably climbed great but drank well to much!but where good climbers when not hung over.....but they where 90%of the time

 

[polingspig]

Not a "SCHOLAR" but...

John Paul wrote:
IMO, the best tree guys are reformed eucmen who have survived, dried out and "put their childish ways behind them" (maybe one of our bible scholars can help me with the quote).

The Scripture is 1 Corinthians 13: 11

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

I can't find any scripture saying that having a drink is sin. But I can find many warning against abuse. I won't go into a long thing, but abuse of any substance generally points to a much more significant problem in the life of the abuser. IMHO there is only one way to have lasting peace. You all know where I am going with this, and if anyone would like to talk about it just PM me.

 

[Chucky]

is it true? all GOOD climbers are one or the other or both? I think so, me being one of them......maybe. I'm not talking about some pansy ass that can climb and prune a tree and make it pretty. I'm talkng about the guy that can and will climb the big nasty Cottonwood hanging over everything but the open area and do it without any casualties. If were up to me i would save the trimming for the the weak. I love big take downs with no way to get a truck to, my bread and butter. I have seen many of "good" climbers that if shown a hard tree they are lost. (well take that fence down and cut that down so I can get a bucket to it then we will do it types) Save the pruning for the new guys. It takes all types but everyone that I have met that is "good" falls into the above catagories.

nothing beats knocking knees (you cant get that deadwooding or pruning)


sorry just a few too many beers

I'm not sure where you get the idea pruning is for the weak, compared to takedowns. I'm certainly not saying a big cottonwood takedown is a walk in the park, but climbing spurless to a top of a big tree and working your way down pruning either by climbing out to the tips or by using a polesaw I think takes a lot more upper body strength and maybe even more total body energy than gaffing up a tree and slicing and dicing it down, even with a lot or rigging involved.

Why do you think so many people like to gaff up trees? Because they're too lazy to pull (or footlock) themselves up the tree.

 

[elmnut]

OK...Now I'll spend the rest of the evening figuring out exactly WTF that is supposed to mean....Can anyone help me out here?

The best arborist is part euc man, and part oak man. The way I understood the story told by Don Blair, Euc men=more balls, oak men=more brains. Not my opinion exactly, just the story around the camp fire.

 

[mpatch]

I'm not sure where you get the idea pruning is for the weak, compared to takedowns. I'm certainly not saying a big cottonwood takedown is a walk in the park, but climbing spurless to a top of a big tree and working your way down pruning either by climbing out to the tips or by using a polesaw I think takes a lot more upper body strength and maybe even more total body energy than gaffing up a tree and slicing and dicing it down, even with a lot or rigging involved.

Why do you think so many people like to gaff up trees? Because they're too lazy to pull (or footlock) themselves up the tree.

nothing to do with strength but more to do with risk, imo its pretty hard to get hurt pruning (so i was roping off this sucker and ...lol r u kidding me). some call us reckless or "have a death wish" but that's why i like climbing the trees that scare the ???? out of me. more than one time i have made sure my groundie has a cell phone in hand with the address and location of where we are just in case (the knee knocker trees)

 

[beowulf343]

There is a need for both trimmers and takedown men. Why can't we all just get along?

 

[treevet]

Can t totally disagree w most dangerous removals done by best treemen who may be/have been drunks and gypsies. Most top of the food chain removal guys are extreme personalities likely to be last out of bar at end of night, smoke too much of the weed w roots based in hell or get into fistfight rather than "turn the other cheek". This capacity going to make for trouble w boss or foreman too (gypsy off to new job). Being in that category myself and maybe one of a dozen around the entire cincy area that does the ultimate hardest tkdowns I often see "yuppie'' tree guys bid a large job and ignore the hardest takedown(or pruning) saying they ll do it later and you end up w it later and they already put too low bid on it. I could always also do the hardest free climbing jobs too tho and if you cannot there are just some big money properties you won t get on ( and shouldn t) bcs you prob just look at every tree as a removal. Cottonwoods good example tree esp live one. In full leaf you can step on a 5" dia limb that is 20ft long 6ft from the trunk and it will snap right under your feet if you don t float yourself a little. It will knock most every branch it hits on the way down too (kind of like a white pine. Would rather remove a real dead than a real healthy cottonwood.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

OK...Now I'll spend the rest of the evening figuring out exactly WTF that is supposed to mean....Can anyone help me out here?

You would have to have abasic uderstanding of the SoCal industry that the Blairs started in, and is still there. Eucs can get so big that there is a sub industry around management and removal. (along with some other fast growing genus I cannot remember)

It is a fast and dirty work style that is more about the mechanics then the science.

One way to look at it is;

oakman- I've been learing this all my life.
eukman- I've been doing this all my life.

Best is to look at a copy of Don's book Arborist equipment, though if you search long enough you should be able to find the story.

 

[jomoco]

Oak Man Euc Man thing

You would have to have abasic uderstanding of the SoCal industry that the Blairs started in, and is still there. Eucs can get so big that there is a sub industry around management and removal. (along with some other fast growing genus I cannot remember)

It is a fast and dirty work style that is more about the mechanics then the science.

One way to look at it is;

oakman- I've been learing this all my life.
eukman- I've been doing this all my life.

Best is to look at a copy of Don's book Arborist equipment, though if you search long enough you should be able to find the story.

JPS is right, I first met Don Blair here in So Cal in the mid Eighties at a PTCA seminar when he was on his Oak Man Euc Man speel, and as he probably intended, I developed an immediate dislike for both him and his condescending attitude toward Euc men, which is what I was, a big euc removal specialist.

However after meeting him in person, I realised that it was all a show and that he himself had grown up in the Bay area of S.F. where the Blue Gum Eucs grow to 200 feet plus, and that he knew exactly what it was like to rig these monsters safely down.

In the following years he and I gave a few teaching seminars together and developed a very high mutual respect for one another. In 92 I had a brief and modest moment of fame after inventing the leather cambium saver and was in S.F. promoting it when Don introduced me to Al shigo who patted me on the back saying how clever my new invention was. Don and I then rented a car and he drove through his stomping grounds in Palo Alto pointing out the huge Blue Gums and even stopped for a picture of us together at the so called Oak Man Euc Man bar.

Don is an arborist that has devoted his whole life to the tree industry and teaching safe professional methods to those willing to learn them. I have sat through some pretty boring seminars that have led me to admire Don's unique and unusual way of getting Euc men all riled up and ready to prove him wrong, it certainly had that effect on me when I heard him speak at that seminar so long ago.

All things in moderation is a good saying.

jomoco

 

[DonnyO]

is it true? all GOOD climbers are one or the other or both? I think so, me being one of them......maybe. I'm not talking about some pansy ass that can climb and prune a tree and make it pretty. I'm talkng about the guy that can and will climb the big nasty Cottonwood hanging over everything but the open area and do it without any casualties. If were up to me i would save the trimming for the the weak. I love big take downs with no way to get a truck to, my bread and butter. I have seen many of "good" climbers that if shown a hard tree they are lost. (well take that fence down and cut that down so I can get a bucket to it then we will do it types) Save the pruning for the new guys. It takes all types but everyone that I have met that is "good" falls into the above catagories.

nothing beats knocking knees (you cant get that deadwooding or pruning)


sorry just a few too many beers

Congradulations, admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery

 

[adam]

John Paul Sanborn

IMO, the best tree guys are reformed eucmen who have survived, dried out and "put their childish ways behind them" (maybe one of our bible scholars can help me with the quote).

These people retain the intestinal to do the big uglies, and find the moral fortitude to become a reliable tradesman.

Exactly

 

[Grace Tree]

1 Corinthians 13:11

When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. NIV

 

[treevet]

John Paul Sanborn

IMO, the best tree guys are reformed eucmen who have survived, dried out and "put their childish ways behind them" (maybe one of our bible scholars can help me with the quote).

These people retain the intestinal to do the big uglies, and find the moral fortitude to become a reliable tradesman.


Exactly

Very well put. Also I feel that personally not only do you retain the balls to do the scary ones, w sobriety (mine of 18 yrs) the fear you used to have overcome all the time amazingly almost goes away. Never thought that would happen.

 

[SRT-Tech]

I
I like'em big and hairy....

:jawdrop: :biggrinbounce2:

sorry Blinky, you walked into it....

 

[rahtreelimbs]

It all boils down to what you like to do!!!

 

[mpatch]

Can t totally disagree w most dangerous removals done by best treemen who may be/have been drunks and gypsies. Most top of the food chain removal guys are extreme personalities likely to be last out of bar at end of night, smoke too much of the weed w roots based in hell or get into fistfight rather than "turn the other cheek". This capacity going to make for trouble w boss or foreman too (gypsy off to new job). Being in that category myself and maybe one of a dozen around the entire cincy area that does the ultimate hardest tkdowns I often see "yuppie'' tree guys bid a large job and ignore the hardest takedown(or pruning) saying they ll do it later and you end up w it later and they already put too low bid on it. I could always also do the hardest free climbing jobs too tho and if you cannot there are just some big money properties you won t get on ( and shouldn t) bcs you prob just look at every tree as a removal. Cottonwoods good example tree esp live one. In full leaf you can step on a 5" dia limb that is 20ft long 6ft from the trunk and it will snap right under your feet if you don t float yourself a little. It will knock most every branch it hits on the way down too (kind of like a white pine. Would rather remove a real dead than a real healthy cottonwood.

that was the whole point.........maybe "extreme personalities" defines me (or us) I'd rather die screaming f@ck , than dreaming of the Playboy bus

 

[Blinky]

:jawdrop: :biggrinbounce2:

sorry Blinky, you walked into it....

SMARTAX!

That's right, no ????? trees for me... but then, I don't have sex with trees. I like my girlfriend with a nice mane and that's it. (I can't believe the word ????? is censored... how do you write ????? willow?)

mpatch,
Dude, your personality certainly sounds extreme... and you're young. When i was 26 people said I had a death wish, I climbed without a rope and I got into fights... I drank a lot more then too... among other things. I really loved that age, it was almost non-stop fun.

Part of being 'good' at anything is being consistent, drunks aren't consistent at anything but getting drunk. Consider that some of that knee knocking you're talking about is the onset of DT's and if your head was clean it might not feel so iffy.

People change. I don't care how badass you are, or think you are, when you have kids, if you love them, you will rethink how you live.

Clearly you haven't stood swaying in the tiptop of an old Pecan with a 1-1/2" TIP in 15mph winds trying to make a perfect collar cut at some weird angle with a polesaw. It's not knee knocking but it is hard as hell and feels like the best high you ever had only much cleaner, lasts all day and night with no hangover... that day can come though if you don't bust something up between now and then.

Pruning isn't about suckers and water sprouts, it's about giving a tree a fighting chance when it's been compromised. The decisions require analysis under stress and will routinely make you climb places you don't want to go. Sometimes you're roping down limbs as big as your waist with no room for error. When you get older, it's not so much about how tough you climb but how smart you climb. When it come to accepting risk, it's pretty black and white. If you climb trees with saws, either you have a pair (women included), or you're stupid.

Open your mind, it makes you look smarter.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I think there is a differance between the hard drinker who is frequently unreliable, and the wino who is allways coming in drunk.

The former will get good at what he does becuase he has to to make himself worth the time and effort wasted when they fail to show

 

[tzelmet]

great topic

I'm an oakman by day and eucman by night. I've worked with all the above, When I meet another climber it doesn't take long to figure it out. I'll climb with any one, any time. The proof is in the pudding. The worse climber of all is one who thinks they know it all.

Why do you think they are called bucket babies?

It is harder to climb without spikes than with them.

 

[rahtreelimbs]

Open your mind, it makes you look smarter.

The proof is in the pudding. The worse climber of all is one who thinks they know it all.

Like these!!!