Drying firewood

[Dalmatian90]

At 3-5 dollars a gallon I'd be thinking seriously of converting to all electric... couldn't be more expensive

Bwwwaaaahhahahahahaaa...you're funny.

15.5 cents/kWh here right now. 17.5 last year.

Fuel calculators, using top efficiency of both fuels, put the cross over point around $3.75 Propane == $0.155 Electric.

Besides, most of Connecticut can't count on the electricity actually working for more then 50 out of 52 weeks per year. At least a generator can power a propane system.

If you ever wondered what Liberalism + Greedy Corporations create, it's an electric system that's the envy of a third world nation.

 

[Whitespider]

Please read my post again and be open minded about my position.

You mean this post?

I always shiver when people about drying wood in a kiln. Using energy to dry out fuel...to be burned.
It reminds me of farmers spending $5 a gallon on propane to dry out corn.

I have re-read it several times... but no matter how many times I read it I can't make the connection between drying firewood in a kiln and drying corn. You are correct though, it is preferable that corn is dried by Mother Nature... problem is Mother Nature doesn't always cooperate and the corn will develop mold and fungus on the stalk, which leaves no other choice but to harvest and artificially dry it. That just flat ain't the same thing as drying firewood in a kiln... there just ain't a rational comparison to be made there.

But, lighten up... I wasn't trying to slam anyone.

 

[STLfirewood]

I have a firewood kiln. I don't find it that expenxsive to dry the wood. I use a wood boiler and burn stuff I can't sell. It takes a little electric to run the fans but not much. My kiln dried wood brings in the $450 a cord range. The is a big upfront cost on a kiln. I got a really good deal on my boiler and a good deal on the kiln. I would say I have about 16k in my setup. I didn't build anything I just hooked everything up. That price includes driving from St. Louis to NH to get the kiln. If I land 3-4 more stores I will be buying another one. Right now I have 9 restraunts I sell to Five of them use kiln wood. I'll be looking for more pretty soon. I add a store then make sure I can keep up with demand then add another.

Scott

 

[STLfirewood]

On another note. If somebody could come up with a cord dryer that ran off a wood boiler then could sell a bunch of them. Almost all farmers have a lot of junk wood around.

 

[CRThomas]

Answer

Some people go to the bath room in the woods and some go in the house your choose. If it kiln dry or go out of business or lose customers if I have to break even to take care of my customers I will I made a promise of dry firewood at $50.00 a true rank. I will keep my promise. I have waste I can use it for fill in the gully or burn it to make sellable firewood or throw it away. Later

 

[CRThomas]

Info

My wife just called I got my new meter yesterday when I get back fro La I will do some testing and put out some info Scott be after the 1st of Dec. We working to day so we have Dec off. Every body around here is running out of firewood dry or green. Boys down the road made a deal with somebody in St. Louis to buy all the split wood they can get. One of Ron's truck is unloading scrap logs all the time. They pay $275.00 for 12 ton load. I guess they make money don't know the rest of the deal and don't care. I am like you Scott got more than I can handle now. Later Scott

 

[Misfit138]

...I have re-read it several times... but no matter how many times I read it I can't make the connection between drying firewood in a kiln and drying corn...there just ain't a rational comparison to be made there..

Both are an expensive use of energy to process a product for consumption or fuel and can be frustratingly cost ineffective..whether necessary or not.
I don't understand why you feel that is irrational...?

 

[CRThomas]

Answer

My soninlaw burns corn to heat there shop is that wasteful. I burn trash wood that would be used as land fill is that wasteful. Don't think so

 

[Whitespider]

Both are an expensive use of energy to process a product for consumption or fuel and can be frustratingly cost ineffective..whether necessary or not.
I don't understand why you feel that is irrational...?

Here is why I think the comparison is irrational...

I agree that the use of propane, gas, oil, etc. to kiln dry firewood is "an expensive use of energy" and that it probably isn't "cost ineffective"... at least in my mind it isn't. Especially when you can choose to let Mother Nature dry the wood for you by simply splitting and stacking in the out-of-doors. But, it can be argued that the use of any fossil fuel, for any purpose, is just as "expensive", so I'm not so sure that's any sort of argument. At the same time, if someone is willing to pay for kiln drying, and it keeps your business afloat... well, I ain't gonna' judge. That leaves us with the issue of "cost ineffective"... and, like I said I agree with you that kiln drying of firewood is not "cost ineffective" for the end user... but, hey, if that's what they want and are will to pay for it... After-all, some people are willing to pay for driving a monster 1-ton, dually pickup... others drive a Ford Ranger 4-cylinder.

Now we get to the issue of drying corn using propane... and it is in fact cost effective because loosing the crop to rot would cost many times the expensive of the propane. When Mother Nature cooperates the preferred choice is to let her dry the corn... but when she don't cooperate there is no other choice because loosing the crop could easily cost ten times as much as the cost of the propane. That makes the use of propane to dry corn a very highly cost effective proposition... unlike kiln drying firewood, which is (as you say) "cost ineffective" for the end user because choosing to not kiln dry will not cause the loss of the crop.

That's why I see no rational comparison... In one case there is a choice, with length of drying time as the main consequence... In the other case there is no real choice, the consequences of choosing not to dry with propane is vastly more expensive and costly. It would be great if we could just leave the corn in the field and wait for Mother Nature... but it just don't work that way... there comes a point where waiting begins to cost more and more, to the point where propane drying is the only cost effective proposition.

 

[Misfit138]

My statement is a perfectly rational comparison and captures the sometimes frustrating nature of drying firewood and corn, both products and/or fuels, by using other costly fuels in an extra step of processing..whether necessary or not.
The comparison is perfectly sound and in accordance with logic and reason- therefore, it is rational.

The gratuitous semantics and details you have provided are purely superfluous and serve only to unnecessarily complicate this simple issue.

 

[lfnh]

Sometimes there are other factors to be considered in making a decision to kiln dry firewood beyond the supply/demand of available dry product. Specifically this is the transportation and sale of certified, heat treated firewood as it pertains to ALB and EAB (and others). Interstate transportation is regulated by the USDA. Intrastate are by the states (or federal agencies) that self regulate. Most states follow the USDA heat treatment protocol. For local producers that source and sell within a quarantined or regulated area this may not be an issue. Other producers that source or sell interstate or outside regulated areas need to be producing certified product.

Just another aspect of cost effectiveness (or not) of producing a saleable product.

 

[CRThomas]

Question

A fellow I met in the cafe said he burn popular. Said burns great his property is covered with. I know old farms and buildings in my area are built out of popular and are over a hundred years old. That's different than firewood. I always thought of popular and cotton wood like a roll of wet toliet paper. Am I thinking wrong. ANSWER

 

[VinnieWV]

Five dollar propane!!!!!! We have been at $1.65 for ag propane since June 1st!

I paid $2.90 a gallon in WV in October.

 

[Wood Doctor]

Yes

A fellow I met in the cafe said he burn popular. Said burns great his property is covered with. I know old farms and buildings in my area are built out of popular and are over a hundred years old. That's different than firewood. I always thought of popular and cotton wood like a roll of wet toliet paper. Am I thinking wrong? ANSWER

For the most part yes. Eastern cottonwood (a poplar tree variety that grows much longer and bigger) is commonly used to make pallets that often last for years, even when stored outside in stacks. Pound for pound, cottonwood is one of the strongest species of wood there is, but it should be milled when dry.

The American Indians were no dopes. They used cottonwood to heat their teepees and cook meat.

 

[leon]

kiln drying firewood

On another note, f somebody could come up with a cord dryer
that ran off a wood boiler then thay could sell a bunch of them.
Almost all farmers have a lot of junk wood around.

Can be done with steam and steam radiators and it is being done by
the same supplier of firewood to Vermont Castings.

They (verrmont Castings) wants their firewood down to a very low
percentage moisture totest fire their stoves.

It is even more important now to have dry wood in that the EPA is
getting cranky over wood burners in general.

Setting up a steam cordwood kiln is just like setting up a steam drying
lumber kiln.

The shed is fully insulated with reflective sheeting to contain the heat and
the moisture is driven out of the top of the kiln along the soffits of the kiln.
The fans are located at the ends to force the heated air everwhere before
it is exhausted with the moisture driven out of the cordwood with the steam
radiators.

You can use an outdoor boiler to feed a closed system steam boiler with a
water loop to keep the water hotter in the base of the boiler water tank while
the boiler is burning waste wood to make steam BUT it is counter productive
when you can use a Harman wood/coal boiler rated for steam to make steam
for a small firewood kiln.

The Harman 360 has 42 gallons of water to make steam and thats plenty of
water to make low pressure steam to feed a pair of very long radiators in a
narrow kiln with 2 single pipe steam radiators which makes the installation easy.

The steam making boiler HAS to be below the kiln horizon for the steam to travel
properly and to allow the condensate to fall by gravity back to the boiler water reservoir.

The moisture escaping the kiln is lost to atmosphere and the heat energy along with it is
not reclaimed by the kiln operator typically because of the cost and or corrosion from the
water vapor that would occur.

A steam kiln gives you dry heat from the conventional radiators with the least amount of
water used as the water returns as condensate back to the water chamber.

As long as a kiln box is well insulated properly vented and the rise and run for the radiators
is correct to allow the condensate to drip properly back into the boiler the heat for cordwood
drying will not go to waste and the cordwood will dry faster and to a greater extent.

With Steam your cooking the firewood with the steam to its fullest efficiency and if desired
you can burn anthracite coal also with high efficiency to make kiln dried wood.

 

[turnkey4099]

A fellow I met in the cafe said he burn popular. Said burns great his property is covered with. I know old farms and buildings in my area are built out of popular and are over a hundred years old. That's different than firewood. I always thought of popular and cotton wood like a roll of wet toliet paper. Am I thinking wrong. ANSWER

Same old, same old. All wood has approximately the same BTU value pound for pound. Is Brand X better firewood than Brand B? Can't be answered without a lot of other conditions throown in.

For example. I heated my house for almosst 30 years burning nothing but Willow - listed right at the bottom of the charts for firewood. Why? Because there are no hardwoods availble in this area and the 'good' evergreen species, fir, tamarack, etc. required long hauls. I could get all the Willow I wanted within 10-15 miles of my house. On a 'dollar/btu' basis, nothing else even came close.

Now I am burning nothing but black locust - right at the top of any firewood chart. Why? Because the locust borer is killing it off around here and people are glad to get rid of the dead trees.

As for you specific question abouit Poplar? If he has it, why _not_ use it? He will stuff the tove oftener and spend more quality time making it up but it will probablyi be the cheapest per btu you will ever see.

Harry K

 

[Currently]

You don't need heat to dry wood, the new kilns are using dehumidifiers instead. More efficient but there is more upfront cost as you need to buy equipment instead of building your own. Total cost of ownership is way cheaper with dehumifiers.

Google dehumidification dry kilns. Lots of info on this subject.

 

[BILLSFIREWOOD]

We do it in 10 days.Kilm dryed, we have a home made kilm. We use the ugle wood in a boiller, for heat. We can get it up to 168 in the kilm. We have a dehumidifier that at 110 in kilm shouts down. Can do 7 cords at a time.

 

[leon]

You don't need heat to dry wood, the new kilns are using dehumidifiers instead. More efficient but there is more upfront cost as you need to buy equipment instead of building your own. Total cost of ownership is way cheaper with dehumifiers.

Google dehumidification dry kilns. Lots of info on this subject.

The problem with dehumidifcation dry kilns is that they are also much more costly to operate,
and are better suited to exotic woods and high value hardwoods.

 

[CRThomas]

Propane price

Yep we sure are getting it....I was checking the costs and it is almost even with fuel oil. Incredible how much it costs out here. If propane was $1.85 here I would be converting the oil eater in a second. Last fill of oil I paid $3.49

Need to save some cash to get either a OWB or wood furnace and install some ducting

I just put five gallon of propane in my fork lift tank $ 23.00 and some change that five dollars is close.