Echo CS-590

[Cliff R]

The "L" screw is very easy to adjust. For nearly all 2-stroke engines the ideal "L" speed setting will be just a tad CCW from the lean "tip-in" point. This simply happens by design. Without going too deep into the science involved, just look at the location of the idle port and off idle transfer port(s) in the carburetor and you will see that the factory very precisely located the transfer holes (or slots) to provide fuel right off idle to help transition on the main jet. With most power equipment carburetors they are able to use the fuel from the low side of the system to provide smooth acceleration off idle even with very quick throttle movements without an accelerator pump to cover up the momentary lean condition created in that scenario. So in basis terms the "L" speed setting is critical to smooth/clean engine function, and why custom tuning is often required to get things up to par on any particular application....IMHO.

Turn it CW (lean) until the engine smooths out and speeds up to the highest rpm it will hold without adjusting the speed screw. Going any further CW from this setting should result in the engine trying to stall out. From the highest/smoothest idle setting go CCW (rich) until you just notice the engine slow every so slightly. Go quickly to full throttle to see if it hesitates. Make a cut and quickly come out of the cut/back to idle when the saw is at full load. Provided the "H" screw isn't too rich, the engine should return to idle speed without trying to stall out, or rpms go too low then it will clean back up after a few seconds.

It may need some fine tuning just a tad one way or the other from this setting, as Steve said just make sure it accelerates clean without hesitation/stumble/bog off idle. It should also idle well for long periods of time without "loading up" when set correctly.

"The drywall screw works good if you don't mind boogering up the flathead slot."

This is another reason to take a few seconds and grind down the sharp point to a flat tip, so it doesn't dig into the slot and bugger it up. I found the limiter caps extremely easy to remove on this saw, they just about fell off the screws with just a slight amount of pressure once the drywall screw was seated against the head of the adjustment screws. Was working on a Husqvarna leaf blower the other day and the only way to remove the limiter caps was to completely destroy them. They certainly did a fine job on those, they were even reinforced with metal!.....Cliff

 

[JackJ]

Thanks for the L adjustment tips--it will probably be this weekend before I get a chance to play with it, but will follow these instructions. I must say that with the saw being brand new, I'm very nervous about running it lean, even at idle for a brief period. You read so much here about scorched pistons/cyls, and I hope to keep this saw running well for the next 15 years or so. I know I'm probably being overcautious, but I like the idea of keeping everything on the rich side for the first couple of tanks and then working it up towards optimum (and that's optimum for longevity, i.e., not peak power).

And yeah--limiters were very easy to remove. I was kinda surprised that the carb. hangs loose when you take the intake plastic off, but from there it was a simple matter of disconnecting the choke pushrod to get easy access to the limiters. Tried a dental pick at first, but couldn't get a good bite, so switched to drywall screw with a filed tip and those orange suckers came out smooth with no damage to the metal screw heads beneath. But I think I did inadvertently mess with the shop's settings, which I regret since they were apparently happy with how it was running. But no big deal--I'm looking forward to seeing how it responds to my adjustments.

My once concern, shared by some others, is that the air filter doesn't have a seat that inspires a lot of confidence--the seal might be fine, but it's plastic on plastic with no gasket, and not a lot of surface area. Seems like small particles could potentially get sucked in there since you can't visually verify how it's seated. I did put a bit of grease around the connection as suggested by someone.

Haven't looked for the oiler adjustment screw yet, but from my quick test run it looks like it's putting out LOTS, which is good.

I'll be cutting into a long 20" red oak trunk that's down this weekend. Can't wait.

Jack

 

[7sleeper]

@JackJ ,

first off you are quite well off with what cliff said about the carb numbers, even turning out the L even more will damage nothing! Second the old recomendation was for non strato saws to run at least 10 tankfull and for strato saws at least 15-20 tankfull before optimizing the carb. And third I wouldn't be so paranoid about the air filter. If you look at airfilters of older saws, there is clearly quite a quantom leap since then, but still those old monsters still run without missing a beat after running for decades!

7

 

[Cliff R]

I used just a dab of white RTV to seal the air filter assembly and another dab under the carb as no gasket was used their either. RTV will still allow easy removal and clean-up if when needed.

P/C damage comes from running lean in a couple of ways. EGT's go WAY up when things get too lean and can reach a temperature that will melt aluminum. RPM's go WAY up when things get too lean, so the piston coming to the top of the cylinder couple hundred times a second causes damage very quickly. Lean mixtures at WOT bring in LESS lubricant, as ALL of the lubricant for the internal engine components come from the fuel it's taking in.

We see a decent number of Echo saws (have had other brands in here for P/C damage as well), even ones still running fine with "smeared" material across the exhaust side of the piston. Just about every single used CS-370 and CS-400 I bought off Ebay had some evidence of piston damage when the muffler was removed. ALL of them were also so lean that they ran very poorly until fully warmed up, and even then not nearly as good as they did after we correctly tuned them.

You also have to figure that some of these engines were straight gassed, but that's often difficult to assess after the damage is done. Most P/C damage on this newer stuff still occurs from being set to lean to keep the EPA happy....IMHO

5 year consumer Warranty or not, my personal equipment is NOT going to be ran lean for a second. I even add a little extra mix to the first few tanks and run 40 to 1 with Premium fuel, 92 or 93 octane instead of 50 to 1 and lower octane fuel.....Cliff

 

[Cliff R]

OK, I've spent enough time with the CS-590 to know that it's a "keeper" and will be part of my line-up. You just aren't going to find more saw for the money in todays market...IMHO.

My history with Echo products dates clear back to the early 1980's. At that time I was cutting firewood for three homes with a Mac-610 we bought thru the mail order catalog at JC Penny's or Sears, can't remember which at the moment.

Anyhow, I decided to "upgrade" and bought a 500VL, it simply didn't make the grade, and was quickly replaced by a Husqvarna 480CD which I still own today, and it's been in service every year since buying it, with next to zero issues anyplace. In all these years it's only received a new stop switch, tank vent, drive clutch sprockets/bars/chains.

Liking the Husqvarna so much I added a 141 Poulan look alike in the early 1990's, which was the biggest POS I ever owned, I swear that saw was possessed, and ended up gladly selling it at a yard sale. Being better educated after that little deal I added a 268XP, then a 262XP, a 181SE and a couple of closed port 55's. Jump ahead to 2003-2004. I had the opportunity to obtain some Echo saws, CS-440, 510, 670, 8000 and a couple of reed valve top handle models. Out of all those saws only the CS-510 remains, the others were not impressive enough anyplace to stay in the line-up.

More recently added two CS-370's, and one of those is my "go to" saw for all the small work around the property, that is one impressive little saw and you can't kill it!

Having been less than impressed with the larger Echo offerings I've just sat back and watched them continue to upgrade and develop new models. Like anything else a number of folks on AS and just about everywhere else start the "bashing", mostly regurgitating old information about Echo saws being too heavy and underpowered for the cc's, etc, etc. Since I've actually owned and tested a pile of their saws I knew that there may be good potential in some of their newest models, so it sparked enough interest to pick up the CS-590. I would have just grabbed up a CS-600P or 620PW, but at half the price the CS-590 was a good way to test that chassis at much less cost so I could at least salvage my hard earned money if it didn't make the grade.

Not only has the CS-590 made the grade, I'm looking to drop the hammer on two or three more of the smaller models to see how well they work? I'm also going to start selling off my Husqvarna saws, specifically the 262XP, 181SE, and a mint condition 50 Special. My 262XP is simply too nice to beat up, as is the 50 Special, and the 181SE is just too much saw for these parts and seldom sees any use. I have little to no use for a saw over 60cc these days, but will keep the 480CD around for the rare event we encounter a big tree downed in a storm, etc.

Anyhow, sorry for the lengthy post and rambling around, the topic at hand is the CS-590, it's a "home-run", broad/smooth power curve, plenty of rpms in the cut, and plenty of power for a 20" bar in any situation.....and I haven't even done a muffler mod on it yet........Cliff

 

[Cliff R]

Just an update. I like the CS-590 enough that I grabbed a CS-600P. It's an early model, first run or serial numbers, and doesn't use the same P/C as the CS-590. Doesn't have the same muffler deflector either, so it got a little help before I even tested it. The carb on this one was set much different than the CS-590, 2 1/8 turns on the "L" screw and the "H" screw was nearly seated. I ended up at 2 1/4 turns on the "L" and 3/4 turns on the "H" screw, and this saw flat rips. The IPL also shows a different coil was used on this model as well, and I don't think it's a limited coil like the CS-590, or at least if it is it's set higher.

Probably doesn't matter much, but the CS-590 says Yamabiko under the serial number and the CS-600P says Kioritz.....Cliff

 

[spydrmonkey]

Hi everyone. Seen this thread and really liked all the information about tuning. I got myself a cs-800 with a 36" bar skip tooth chisel and use a slightly raised H & L setting. But even with all of the cc's I am having trouble cutting through a 4'-5' diameter trunk of a coliseum maple. Think it might be an old growth tree if that might help. My saw seems to bog way down once it gets a load applied to it. Any suggestions?

Sent from my HTC Desire 510 using Tapatalk

 

[Deererainman]

By the background of your pics, you've spent some time in carburetors. My CS 590 has the muffler gutted and limiters removed. It wears a 24" bar, runs buried in hedge apple with no problems.

 

[CR888]

Hi everyone. Seen this thread and really liked all the information about tuning. I got myself a cs-800 with a 36" bar skip tooth chisel and use a slightly raised H & L setting. But even with all of the cc's I am having trouble cutting through a 4'-5' diameter trunk of a coliseum maple. Think it might be an old growth tree if that might help. My saw seems to bog way down once it gets a load applied to it. Any suggestions?

Sent from my HTC Desire 510 using Tapatalk

Semi chisel skip, and a sharp chain don't go too low on depth gauges and take some wedges, Take it slow and easy. Make sure tank is full, oiler is turned up and saw is properly tuned for a buried 36" b/c. Perhaps some more info could help, is chain sharp and throwing nice chips? I don't use full chisel chain as most of what I cut renders it useless after 1-2 cookies. Everyone says hedge is tough...semi chisel is a must.

 

[spydrmonkey]

Semi chisel skip, and a sharp chain don't go too low on depth gauges and take some wedges, Take it slow and easy. Make sure tank is full, oiler is turned up and saw is properly tuned for a buried 36" b/c. Perhaps some more info could help, is chain sharp and throwing nice chips? I don't use full chisel chain as most of what I cut renders it useless after 1-2 cookies. Everyone says hedge is tough...semi chisel is a must.

Yeah chain is sharp and the chips look great. Just when the bar sinks in and a full load is applied I hear a major decrease in rpms and the chain heats up a lot.

Sent from my HTC Desire 510 using Tapatalk

 

[Cliff R]

"I got myself a cs-800 with a 36" bar skip tooth chisel and use a slightly raised H & L setting. But even with all of the cc's I am having trouble cutting through a 4'-5' diameter trunk of a coliseum maple. Think it might be an old growth tree if that might help. My saw seems to bog way down once it gets a load applied to it. Any suggestions?"

If you have followed any of my threads, I owned 2 CS-670's, a CS-6700 and CS-8000. I got rid of all of those saws for the same reason. Tuning woln't help much. They have OK power for the CC's, but very narrow power band and pull out of the power range easily and stall against the clutch in big material or when you "push" them hard. The rumor is that they have excellent potential with porting, but I'm not into that sort of thing, and would rather buy a saw that's already a solid powerful deal right out of the box, and at most open up the muffler slightly and custom tune it.

The only other Echo saws to date that I've purchased and was impressed with were the CS-360T, CS-370, and CS-510. All of the others have been sent down the road for not making the grade. The little CS-370 actually isn't a high rpm saw, it's more of a "grunt" saw, with excellent torque and smoother power curve. It's my "go to" saw here for 80 percent of the limbing and light cutting.

I hate to say this in open Forum, but of all the Echo saws that I've had here the biggest one they offer was the biggest "turd" of the bunch. I couldn't get mine to effectively pull a 24" bar in hardwood. I had to leave the rakers high and keep the bucking spikes out of the work and just let it dig, or the darned thing would stall against the clutch and bog down no matter how the carb was set. It didn't like high rpm's, and when you set the "H" speed screw lean for good rpms out of the cut, it was even worse. The CS-670's weren't much better, and none of them would hold a candle to my 262xp or 268xp Husqvarna, so I never found myself reaching for them on wood cutting days.

On a good note, this new series of Echo saws based on the 60cc platform flat ROCK! I'm not doing back-flips yet, but I did some cutting in the woodpile yesterday with the CS-600p, and it was very impressive.....FWIW.


"By the background of your pics, you've spent some time in carburetors."

http://www.cliffshighperformance.com/

I build carburetors and tune for a living. Since going full time in 2003 I've built over 7000, mostly Quadrajets, but we also do AFB's, 4GC', 2GC's, Thermoquads, and once in a while a Holley or Edelbrock AFB clone. We built a LOT of Q-jets for full "race" applications where rules require them, and I did the AFB's for the Hemi Roadrunner in the clip below, it set the record for Pure Stock last year at 10.70 over 130mph. Coincidentally also did the Q-jet on the RAII Firebird in the clip, it's went 10.0's, both cars run on 7" wide bias ply tires.

 

[bikemike]

Quadra jet carbs are not bad once they are set they hold for years aswhere holley needs adjustments to float level often or have there moments of fogging out bugs with black haze

 

[Cliff R]

Off subject but the carburetor (1977 Q-jet) on my GTO has been in service for at least 20 years, and never once had to touch it other than a slight re-tune for each of the 4 different engines that have been under it.

On the dyno and at the drag strip it has outpowered every Edelbrock, Demon, Holley or Holley "clone" we've ran against it. Even better, it gets a LOT better fuel economy for "normal" driving.

On subject, the CS-600P was WAY too lean right out of the box. Not sure why the factory had the "H" speed screw nearly seated, and I was very careful removing the limiter caps not to disturb the factor setting. I'm certain it would have "smoked" the P/C if ran in that condition, mostly because the coil on this saw doesn't act limited like the CS-590 and the rpms were going off the scale at no load.......FWIW.....Cliff

 

[bikemike]

Off subject but the carburetor on my GTO has been in service for at least 20 years, and never once had to touch it other than a slight re-tune for each of the 4 different engines that have been under it.

On the dyno and at the drag strip it has outpowered every Edelbrock, Demon, Holley or Holley "clone" we've ran against it. Even better, it gets a LOT better fuel economy for "normal" driving.

On subject, the CS-600P was WAY too lean right out of the box. Not sure why the factory had the "H" speed screw nearly seated, and I was very careful removing the limiter caps not to disturb the factor setting. I'm certain it would have "smoked" the P/C if ran in that condition, mostly because the coil on this saw doesn't act limited like the CS-590 and the rpms were going off the scale at no load.......FWIW.....Cliff

That's with most new products, too lean out the door.

 

[BGE541]

Just an update. I like the CS-590 enough that I grabbed a CS-600P. It's an early model, first run or serial numbers, and doesn't use the same P/C as the CS-590. Doesn't have the same muffler deflector either, so it got a little help before I even tested it. The carb on this one was set much different than the CS-590, 2 1/8 turns on the "L" screw and the "H" screw was nearly seated. I ended up at 2 1/4 turns on the "L" and 3/4 turns on the "H" screw, and this saw flat rips. The IPL also shows a different coil was used on this model as well, and I don't think it's a limited coil like the CS-590, or at least if it is it's set higher.

Probably doesn't matter much, but the CS-590 says Yamabiko under the serial number and the CS-600P says Kioritz.....Cliff






View attachment 478269

I bet its because the CS600 is a pre-2012 when it was still owned by Big K and the CS590 is newer when all Echos are now the Yamabiko name. The Echos are a great all around saw, if you get a 620 and do some mods you will really love it!

 

[Squatch]

Just got a 590 myself last weekend. About a year ago we had a good size oak fall on our property. I got through what I could with a sthil ms180. I had the 590 buried in trunk first day out. No hesitation what so ever. I had high expectations after reviews on the 590 and was impressed with how fast it cut through oak over 20" in diameter.

I didn't do any tuneing or muffler mods. My local dealer had it set up for me when I picked it up.

I split everything with a fiskers so I ended up doing a fair amount of horizontal (noodling?) cuts as well. It ran very strong, and stock with the low kickback chain is very comparable to in power to my neighbors stihl 391.

After shopping for a few months and looking at rancher/farm stihls and huskys and at dolmar/makitas the price tag of 399 for a 60cc saw with a metal crankcase seems pretty unbeatable. So far I'm very happy with my purchase.

 

[Cliff R]

I'm also pretty impressed with the CS-590, and that doesn't happen easily as I have some pretty strong running Pro saws to compare it to.

The new CS-600P is still getting a "break-in", which includes extra oil in the fuel and I've got it set just a tad rich on the"H" speed screw, limiting no load rpm's just a touch. A little early in the evaluation and testing stages, but for sure it's a very strong runner, and just going by initial observations it's stronger in the cut than the CS-590. Could be the coil not being as limited, and/or because I took the restriction out of the plate under the deflector, it was not the same part(s) as the CS-590 was using, and a LOT more restrictive.

More to come later once I get some decent weather for some time cutting/testing......Cliff

 

[JackJ]

I've only been able to get two tanks of fuel through my CS-590 so far--weather and work are not cooperating with my firewood plans. I'm quite happy with the saw so far. But two concerns at this point:

First, there's a noticeable "clanging" sound coming from under the sprocket housing--something to do with the clutch, I'm assuming, and maybe perfectly normal, but not something I hear on my Stihl saw. Not sure if I should take the sprocket off to investigate, or take it to the dealer to have them advise me.

Second, after two tanks of cutting I removed the air filter just to see how much dust it had collected--very little, indicating that the ducting to keep debris away from the filter is working as advertised. Yet there was a very small chip lodged at the junction of the filter to the saw, and the grease that'd I'd put there had attracted some fines, even though the rest of the filter was almost spotless.

So I think I'm going to follow Cliff's lead and clean off the grease and use some RTV there. Yeah, it's probably not necessary given how much better modern saw air filtration is compared to old saws, as someone notes above. But still.

But a question on this for Cliff: Should I reapply the silicone every time I take the air filter off for cleaning? Or can I leave some grease on the filter, and try to get the silicone to stick relatively permanently to the saw side, such that the filter won't stick, but will still make a pretty good seal whenever the filter is reattached?

 

[BGE541]

I use some thick grease ta the filter/filter junction every time. Easy to wipe off and replace and works great.

 

[Cliff R]

"But a question on this for Cliff: Should I reapply the silicone every time I take the air filter off for cleaning? Or can I leave some grease on the filter, and try to get the silicone to stick relatively permanently to the saw side, such that the filter won't stick, but will still make a pretty good seal whenever the filter is reattached?"

Apply a very small amount of RTV to the inlet opening around the outer edge, I used white but color wouldn't matter. Put some car paste wax on the air filter where it seats, and it will act like a release agent so you don't have to re-seal the filter each time it is removed. I give the RTV a few minutes to "skin", then push the filter in place and install the cover, good to go and it woln't let any dust/dirt/debris inside the air cleaner element that can find it's way thru the engine........Cliff