electric?

[klickitatsacket]

3 phase motors are dirt cheap on the used market becasue few people want to deal with them. You can also build your own rotophase. My dad did when he was setting up a sgrag mill. I''l see if I can get some pictures of it. It has been sitting for quite a while but I will see if it is till hooked up.

 

[woodshop]

...so bottom line so far as I see it boils down to, if you want serious milling power (forget portable, stationary only) using electric motors you either have to be handy enough with electrical components to be able to build your own 3 phase power converter OR you need a motor that weighs a ton OR you need a huge generator capable of putting out more amps than your house service OR you have deep pockets and can afford a big HP motor/phase converter along with expensive cable thicker than a garden hose to feed it OR you happen to have a used golf cart in your garage that you might be able to use the motor out of for this thing... did I forget anything?

As much as I would love to saw with electricity, from a practical standpoint so far the numbers (both HP and $$) don''t seem to add up. If we're talking about a portable csm or small mill as the original post seemed to indicate, then it's a non starter as rail says.

 

[aquan8tor]

...so bottom line so far as I see it boils down to, if you want serious milling power (forget portable, stationary only) using electric motors you either have to be handy enough with electrical components to be able to build your own 3 phase power converter OR you need a motor that weighs a ton OR you need a huge generator capable of putting out more amps than your house service OR you have deep pockets and can afford a big HP motor/phase converter along with expensive cable thicker than a garden hose to feed it OR you happen to have a used golf cart in your garage that you might be able to use the motor out of for this thing... did I forget anything?

As much as I would love to saw with electricity, from a practical standpoint so far the numbers (both HP and $$) don''t seem to add up. If we're talking about a portable csm or small mill as the original post seemed to indicate, then it's a non starter as rail says.

You forgot that you could move into an industrial warehouse with 3 phase service.....big bakeries have 3phase powered equipment, machine shops sometimes do, and large scale buildings have 3 phase equipment for blowers & evaporative coolers...I've seen a couple things on the history channel on logging tech & the underwater log recovery out of the St. Lawrence that had giant electric motors on the mills, almost certainly 3 phase.
A guy I built an aquarium filter for a few years back had a generator run of LP gas that had a supercharged 460cid V8 that produced something like 330amps of 220V, single phase power. He had a 5,000+ sq.ft reptile breeding facility that housed hundreds of rare exotics that had to be warm....

 

[Al Smith]

Regarding true horse power rating on electric motors,the only true rating is 746 watts per horsepower.Often single phase motors are erroniously sold as "develpos" such and such power.Example,a 5 HP motor that develops this amount is really only about 2.8.It merely will with stand an overload for a period of time but not forever.

The conversion from gasoline to electric is about double,more or less.You can operate an electric motor for far less money than a gasoline engine,and less maintanence.

Static phase convertors only produce about 60 percent of the motors rated horse power.In other words about 6 HP from a ten horse.Rotary phase convertors are over 93 percent effcient,at least the ones I build are.I recently built a ten HP which I featured on another part of the internet I dare not mention.

A few facts.A three phase motor running at 240 volts is about 2.5 amps per horsepower.The Hp rating of a rotary convertor will start a like sized motor and run up to 3 times it's rating.In other words a ten will start a 10 and run up to about 30.

As far as efficiency regarding the use of convertors,a little example.I have a 5 HP convertor that runs itself,a 1/2 HP Brigeport mill,a 3 HP lathe and a 3HP drill press.Running all this draws less amperage than my single phase huge drill press.

 

[TedChristiansen]

To get an idea of what kind of electric motor would be required, check out the Logosol website:

http://www.logosol.com

They make and sell both electric chainsaws and electric bandsaws for use on their M7 and WoodWorkers Mills.

The electric option would be nice in urban environments - but it is expensive.

Regards,

Ted

 

[woodshop]

You forgot that you could move into an industrial warehouse with 3 phase service.....big bakeries have 3phase powered equipment, machine shops sometimes do, and large scale buildings have 3 phase equipment for blowers & evaporative coolers...I've seen a couple things on the history channel on logging tech & the underwater log recovery out of the St. Lawrence that had giant electric motors on the mills, almost certainly 3 phase.
A guy I built an aquarium filter for a few years back had a generator run of LP gas that had a supercharged 460cid V8 that produced something like 330amps of 220V, single phase power. He had a 5,000+ sq.ft reptile breeding facility that housed hundreds of rare exotics that had to be warm....

whoa... slow down... sheeeesh... move into an industrial warehouse??? I'm fully aware that many large scale industrial electric services involve 3 phase power. Some have massive 440V motors... some have their own massive power generators like your example of a supercharged V8 putting out 330 amps. Not questioning that. Again, the original query was concerning whether if was feasible to use electric motors on a csm in place of a chainsaw!!! Logosol apparently found a way to do it using 3 phase, although kindof expensive and not without its own set of problems. It sure doesn't look too portable. You'd have a heck of a time trying to mount that on a csm you can carry back into the woods.

btw, I watched that underwater log recovery History channel show too, what a cool concept digging up and salvaging old growth timber. As a woodworker, my mouth waters at some of the figure those huge maples have. They say there is still tons of it buried at the bottom of the lake up there.

 

[Al Smith]

That sunken timber can be found with an internet search of either Superior lumber or Timeless Timber,both companys owned by the same person.As a note of interest,they had one "fiddleback" maple log that fetched 40 thousand dollars.Instrument grade wood,exactly like Stradivarius used.

 

[poleframer]

There have been many discussions here regarding different mills. CSM vs band, and many types of each. In reality each fills a niche. I think Dean might be on to something. Like a carriage type mill of simple design (like mine, or Marks) for low to medium use, affordable, and with enough power to compare to a 100cc+ chainsaw. AND quiet to boot.
My only doubts have already been stated. Seems anything less than 8hp would be marginal at best. So could you include a phase converter and still be economical? How big of a 220 motor could be run?
Maybe something like a kit deal, sell the hard to get, or fab. parts, (the carriage/motor/bar setup) along with plans for the rest (the rail system).

 

[woodshop]

There have been many discussions here regarding different mills. CSM vs band, and many types of each. In reality each fills a niche. I think Dean might be on to something. Like a carriage type mill of simple design (like mine, or Marks) for low to medium use, affordable, and with enough power to compare to a 100cc+ chainsaw. AND quiet to boot.
My only doubts have already been stated. Seems anything less than 8hp would be marginal at best. So could you include a phase converter and still be economical? How big of a 220 motor could be run?
Maybe something like a kit deal, sell the hard to get, or fab. parts, (the carriage/motor/bar setup) along with plans for the rest (the rail system).

Definitely, for a stationary mill, maybe in a backyard of an urban or suburban environment like mine, an electric motor driven mill would be ideal. Again, looks like Logosol did the math and came up with something that fits the bill. Catch is it is pretty expensive, double or triple cost of a gas engine, so it would have to be an environment where you could ONLY use electric I guess. For some of us (not me) who are handy with industrial electric motors and phase converters, I suppose you could build your own from spare/used parts. I'd be interested in the design if somebody can come up with one that started with standard 220V house service, maybe sucking 30-50 amps, and went from there into a converter or some such. Anybody here that can do that for us?

 

[aggiewoodbutchr]

I've had something like this on my wish list for a couple of years...

 

[klickitatsacket]

There have been many discussions here regarding different mills. CSM vs band, and many types of each. In reality each fills a niche. I think Dean might be on to something. Like a carriage type mill of simple design (like mine, or Marks) for low to medium use, affordable, and with enough power to compare to a 100cc+ chainsaw. AND quiet to boot.
My only doubts have already been stated. Seems anything less than 8hp would be marginal at best. So could you include a phase converter and still be economical? How big of a 220 motor could be run?
Maybe something like a kit deal, sell the hard to get, or fab. parts, (the carriage/motor/bar setup) along with plans for the rest (the rail system).

thanks for the input. This is what I was looking for. I talked with my dad last night about this whole thing. he has quite a bit of experience with it. He not only built a rotophase for around $40 but he also designed much of the equipment that I built for him. Any how he was telling me that with electric you can go 1/3 - 1/2 of gas HP rating if you use electric motors to fill the need. A 5hp electric 220 motor will pull a 48" with no problems. the RPM is not as high but that can be fixed by gearing up the sprocket.

 

[aquan8tor]

I've had something like this on my wish list for a couple of years...

Does that say "DOLMAR"???? WOW!!!! pretty incredible. Woodshop; I was only joshin' about the warehouse, but I do like the idea of how quiet it would be. The electric mill would be great if I were in a better position to move and load logs onto a trailer efficiently and without impact, but as it is, nothing can beat the versatility of your setup, which I'm trying to replicate.

As far as these DIY rotary converters are concerned, I've seen ads for plans, but how good are they, and what size motors do you need in relation to the HP converter you're trying to make; in other words, do you need like a 1HP motor to make a 3HP converter, or what?? I understand the concept I think, but I'm not sure of the torque/HP needed to get the third phase out of the rotation; how much resistance that creates. I have a couple of small motors in the shed that might be of some use....

 

[aggiewoodbutchr]

Does that say "DOLMAR"???? WOW!!!! pretty incredible. ...

Yep. Dolmar. I've searched all over for more info on these but no luck. Here's another angle.

 

[aquan8tor]

Not to derail the thread, but do you know anything about the operation in the pics? What's the tree being slabbed? looks kinda like a maple from the bark, but the wood is pretty dark.

 

[aggiewoodbutchr]

http://www.talaricohardwoods.com/index.html

This is one lucky b@$#@rd.....

 

[Al Smith]

Phase converter

This is the picture of the control panal of the last converter I built,a 10 HP.If you do an internet search using the words "phase converter "or rotary phase coverter you will find many instructional sites on the subject with an explanation of how they work.

I suppose I've built 20 or 30 of them,I lost count but the largest I think was 30 HP.
I would imagine if you bought the componets used you could most likely do the job for between 100 and 200 bucks.The motor itself doesn't have to be the best,could even have a broken shaft for that matter.I have total of nothing in this one,just 3 hours of my labor.

I use a large electrolytic capacitor for starting cap.,a couple thousand microfarad and figure about 7.5 microfarad per HP for the running caps which are oil filled type,pictured in the lower right in the control panal.I installed 4 but only used 3 for this one.By parrelling the running caps you can pretty much balance the 3rd or generated leg of the three phase.I think the one pictured was around 245 volts with the other two at 240.Too little capacatance will cause low voltage and too high will cause higher.Keep it below 300 volts on a 240 volt system.

 

[woodshop]

Al Smith that looks like something I would try and build, and then when I threw the switch the street lights out front would dim and smoke would start pouring out of my little 100 amp service box in my cellar If I do this, I want YOU here helping me. Believe it or not, I actually did do a google search, and sure enough there are plenty of places that have plans for phase converters. Simple enough that I think I could actually do this. Not sure I want to take the time to dig up the parts and then try it though. Point being if somebody was ambitious and had the time, this is feasible. Throw in a used 3 phase motor and maybe your "quietly" sawing wood?

As for that huge yellow Dolmar saw... now I'm curious too. So happens that mill is only about an hour west of me. I might just take a drive out there and ask them about it. If I do, I'll take pics (assuming they let me) and will post a thread. Won't be for at least 6 weeks though. Got wood down that needs milling, and I only have weekends to do that.

 

[Al Smith]

100 amps would be just dandy,no problem at all.Even a 10 HP converter only draws about 13 amps,because it is not loaded.Couple that to another 10 and it would only be 38 amps,fully loaded.However I would recommend perhaps a 5 HP if you are on a fused main.You can do a lot with 5 HP 3 phase.

 

[curdy]

Don't forget about Hearne Hardwoods Inc. in Oxford, PA. They also have a big mill. 67" bandsaw. About 1 hr from here.

http://www.specialtyhardwoods.com/exotic_wood/facilities_hardwoods.html

 

[olyman]

ok----ive read the whole thread---ellis manufacturing--they make bandsaws--drill presses--and the like---i have one of their drill presses---guess what---its 220v single phase in----but the motor is dc---yup--dont know what they did--but tell you what---even at low rpms----itll break your fingers---maybe you can figure it out, al---i sure like it---- their out of wisconsin somewhere--not by the drill press right now--