Electrical utility right-of-way and tree trimming

[kodiak]

We have a 1,200' driveway that meanders through our property. In one stretch it has woods on one side and a line of trees on the other. The other side of the line of trees is what I'd describe as prairie. This same stretch of driveway comes in close proximity to our overhead power lines for about 150'.

Late last fall a local tree trimming company contracted by the utility came through. They came in late one day and instead of trimming the trees that were near the lines they cut them down completely. When I got home that night and noticed it, it appeared that they were not yet done. I put a note on the next (still standing) tree ordering them to not cut any more until we spoke. Next morning I get a call from the tree crew and I immediately drove home to meet with them. My first question was "What is your directive from the utility regarding how far back to trim?". The foreman vaguely mentioned "... Oh, 15 feet or so from the line in each direction..". When I asked him why the trees were cut at ground level he indicated that they didn't want to have to come back as often. Huh??? (these guys are contracted).

Anyway, for the remainder of the tree line the foreman and I went through and agreed on what they were to trim and they completed the job. A couple of days later after I cooled down, I had a representative from the utility come out and look things over. He agreed that the trimmers were overly aggressive in their work and indicated that in the spring they would consider doing some replanting.

Now it is spring and I'm getting ready to formulate a letter to the utility outlining my expectations for tree replacement (assuming they are wanting to get by with a handfull of 24" saplings). The total amount of tree line that they clear cut is about 75' long. A rough count, and stump diameter, of the trees they cut is: qty 6 of 6"-8" trees, qty 10 of 3"-4" trees and qty 20 of 2" trees. These trees were not of high quality but none the less provided a wind break as well as a nice look when driving in.

Three questions for you all:

1) What is the typical ROW for a power utility? I'm in Minnesota.

2) I'm planning on requesting they replant at least 10-15 decent sized trees (6'-8' in height). I will agree that the trees should be a type that doesn't grow very high. I'd also want them planted by a nursery that provides some type of warranty. Although I am very capable of planting them myself, I'd prefer to let them pay to have the work done. What do you suppose my chances are of them agreeing to something like this?

3) Is the utility going to tell me to work this out with the tree company?

Any comments would be appreciated.

Thanks - Kodiak...

 

[lxt]

Good Luck with that!!

in order to answer your questions we need to know:

1- what size is the line (KV) this will make a difference on clearance.

2- does the utility have an aerial right of way or ground right of way? big difference & affects your claim rights!

3- are there trees behind what was cut down? cuz then they can say what was cut were hazard trees & they were establishing a new large tree line/ corridor edge!


I just consulted with some folks over my way in regards to a wrongful removal..........the utility made an offer, but was stern that they would not negotiate beyond what they offered....take or leave it & do what you gotta do was their attitude!




LXT................

 

[kodiak]

Good Luck with that!!

in order to answer your questions we need to know:

1- what size is the line (KV) this will make a difference on clearance.

2- does the utility have an aerial right of way or ground right of way? big difference & affects your claim rights!

3- are there trees behind what was cut down? cuz then they can say what was cut were hazard trees & they were establishing a new large tree line/ corridor edge!


I just consulted with some folks over my way in regards to a wrongful removal..........the utility made an offer, but was stern that they would not negotiate beyond what they offered....take or leave it & do what you gotta do was their attitude!




LXT................

1) Not sure of the line voltage but it only services my property and there is a transformer between this section of power line and my meter.
2) When I asked the utility about what the law allows them for ROW, they mentioned 15' but they were vague as to where this was measured from. They never mentioned aerial or ground. I've looked around on the State of MN website for something on this but have come up short.
3) Not sure if I'm following you but the line of trees they cut down is probably 5 feet wide and was the only thing between the driveway and the treeless prairie ground on the other side.

Yeah, I'm a little afraid they're going to want to play hardball. That's why I'm wanting to figure out whether I have a leg to stand on here or not.

 

[atvguns]

The utility company should have a easement contract either form you or the previous land owner you need to get a copy of that it will give you all the information about distance you need to know if they can't provide you with a copy then they was trespassing. Call your lawyer

 

[Bigus Termitius]

I wish you luck, it's a quagmire. No matter what, let cool heads prevail. You really don't want to get into it with the power company, ask for what is reasonable, and be reasonable and you are more likely to get it. The power company has every right to maintain the lines and be there, so don't bother with being hostile with an attorney. Trust me, you want power, safe, reliable power and I would think especially in Minnesota at the end of a 1200 ft. drive. I’m not saying you may not get something by losing your mind, many do, but there will likely be an eventual cost that makes winning small victories counterproductive.

Hard to say without walking the property, or at least seeing some pics, but I'd reconsider a replant along through there. It's good you want trees that will not grow back into the lines, but they still could become an issue regarding your power lines if placed improperly. I’ve had to trim so many trees that the HO never thought would get that big. Not to mention, if you do not maintain that area properly, I’ll bet you’ll have more volunteer trees coming in that will not only need trimmed in the future, but they compete with and can ruin the trees you want there. You might think about alterative vegetation instead, something that can give you a break and a screen, but never become an issue for the power company.

I’d take whatever I could get and plant something more desirable in an unrelated place. Like ornamental or fruit trees for example.

Regardless, consider the layout, consult with the utility forester, and try to come up with a long term solution that accommodates their needs as well as yours. In your situation, I’d want them to have flawless access to the entire line. Clearly, a more creative vegetation solution is in order.

 

[atvguns]

I wish you luck, it's a quagmire. No matter what, let cool heads prevail. You really don't want to get into it with the power company, ask for what is reasonable, and be reasonable and you are more likely to get it. The power company has every right to maintain the lines and be there, so don't bother with being hostile with an attorney.

They have every right once the landowner signs the right of way easement contract. what I was saying is don't let them tell you the right of way is so many feet wide make them show you the contract on that piece of property so you know where you stand on the issue. If they won't they are trying to hide something that is when you talk to a lawyer

by the way I am talking about in MO I don't know about your state

 

[kodiak]

...

 

[kodiak]

(Hmm, I posted something earlier but it never showed up. Here is a recreation of that post.)

Lots of interesting comments here. My conversations with them up to now have been completely civil and I have no intention of changing that approach.

An easement contract was mentioned in another post. This is exactly the type of documentation I had asked the utility for last fall. All I received were some photocopies of suggested trimming methods from some tree care publication.

We are definitely wanting to put small trees or very large shrubs back into this strip. Access for future maintenance should not be a problem either from the driveway or from the treeless area on the other side.

While the utilty rep was out last fall I asked him about any eventual plans for moving lines underground. He indicated that it's not unheard of in situations like ours. I may bring that option up as part of a compromise/resolution to this situation.

Are easements completely controlled by the utility or are there laws that describe their rights??

 

[Bigus Termitius]

They aren't trying to hide anything; they are busy trying to provide safe and reliable power. Most people understand that, and don't split hairs over it. The ROW is well established, and changes hands with property sales. So many urbanites move to the country and claim they never signed an agreement, according to the power company they did when they bought the place. On rare occasions I've seen them dig it all out and spell it out for people, but those are generally the kinds of people that want to call the National Guard, only to find out that the local Sherriff will be happy to ensure the power company is allowed to do their job.

I've also seen them pass while holding that trump card in reserve so we could move on to more important projects. They pick their battles too. It comes down to time and energy management, not whether or not there is a ROW. They make a note of the troubled customer so they can deal with them accordingly in the future and move on.

Around here a single phase tap, like this one most likely is, has a ten foot row on each side of the line, but they typically only take the minimum clearance that they need, howbeit they need proper access. Ten foot is reasonable, but fifteen makes more sense to me. And if I lived at the end of such a long drive in Minnesota, or Missouri, they can have every bit of 15 foot and I'd insure they have year around easy access.

There is no real point in pursuing litigation over a few small volunteer trees being eliminated. Sounds like they got stuck with a real novice of a foreman. (which is also a product of this overall dilemma) Not because they were eliminated, but because he didn't deal with the landowner first. With any experience, he could have gotten permission, and it would have been the landowner's idea.

Howbeit, what's done is done, and obtaining a win-win situation is all about moving forward constructively in step with the energy provider, not against them. A good relationship with the power company pays dividends. I've seen it countless times.

And conversely, the power company wants to work with their customers too. I've seen them go out of their way to do so, and I've done likewise. Ninety eight percent of the time I was able to handle a conflict of interest on site with the general options I was given to work with, and didn't have to make a phone call to the power company, or their forester.

All in all, as a utility forester, I’d want the contractor to address this mishap, and as a contractor, I’d have my foreman planting trees with a limited warranty depending upon the chosen species and locations.

There is a solution here that serves everyone, but it doesn't involve a phone call to an attorney, too often that only serves a party of one, and there should be no guessing who that is.

 

[wampum]

A few years back some folks wanted to build a home on 10 acres that was land locked with a right away driveway on the edge of my property. The only way they could get electric is if I would give them a right of way. This worked out good for me,because I was putting a new fence in,so I had to clear it anyhow. I gave them the right away for 1 dollar and they cleared a 15 foot swath on the edge of my property. They do not own the ground but they have a right to maintain the right away.
It is pasture now,and I have no trees growing there,but I believe I really cannot stop them from keeping it cut to the ground. If your right away is like mine they do not really have to have your permission to keep it clear.They usually contact you as a good will gesture.Most utilities will work with you,but they like to clear it so that it is not a problem for years.

 

[kodiak]

...
There is no real point in pursuing litigation over a few small volunteer trees being eliminated. ...

... Howbeit, what's done is done, and obtaining a win-win situation is all about moving forward constructively in step with the energy provider, not against them. ...

For the record, I have no intention of taking these guys to court over this. In addition, a resolution that involves compromise from both parties is really the best I can hope for. The reason for airing this here is to get a better understanding of what their rights are as this would come into play in whatever negotiations may occur.

Is sounds as though my next step should be to find out exactly what, if anything, is spelled out in the easement. Apparently this is determined by the utility, not by any state regulations.

 

[rmh3481]

Maybe this will help;
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/rules/?id=7819

 

[Bigus Termitius]

For the record, I have no intention of taking these guys to court over this. In addition, a resolution that involves compromise from both parties is really the best I can hope for. The reason for airing this here is to get a better understanding of what their rights are as this would come into play in whatever negotiations may occur.

Is sounds as though my next step should be to find out exactly what, if anything, is spelled out in the easement. Apparently this is determined by the utility, not by any state regulations.

My recent post was not directed at you per se. I didn't even noticed that you posted again till now, or I would have quoted atvguns to clarify. I can tell you've been civil, patient, and intelligent. Stay diligent and I'm sure that this can be resolved.

I don't recommend going underground, it's expensive and no way is it a cure all. Think tree roots. I've seen the power company destroy a front yard looking for faults in established underground. Six in all were found and fixed before the digging stopped, and that wasn't even tree root related. Imagine the carnage on reaching a place 1200 ft from the road to find faults. Not to mention, any diggin around trees is going to damage roots as well.

With any replant just consider the maintenance you'll have to do along that stretch to keep the volunteer trees that the birds plant while sitting on the powerlines from taken over. If you stay on it, it won't be that bad, but it can get out of hand. Good Luck.

 

[atvguns]

An easement contract was mentioned in another post. This is exactly the type of documentation I had asked the utility for last fall. All I received were some photocopies of suggested trimming methods from some tree care publication.

They aren't trying to hide anything; they are busy trying to provide safe and reliable power.

Nope not trying to hide anything:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[Rftreeman]

they utility company I worked for didn't consider anything to be an actual tree until it was at least 5 inches DBH so I'd say that 90% of what they cut would be considered under brush here and would have been cut down 15 feet either side of the line so that'd be a 30 foot ROW and you'd be very lucky to get more than 5 saplings out of them, don't piss them off to much or they might pull the contract and come cut the hell out of your trees if the contract allows it, it has been done before, I know, I did the cutting....

 

[Bigus Termitius]

Nope not trying to hide anything:hmm3grin2orange:

LOL! That doesn't mean they are hiding anything, just that they are too busy to go digging it out of the back corner of some storage room where it's buried, the SOP is probably to attempt to inform the customer of methods first in hopes that it will suffice. I've spent enough time in an operations room; they are understaffed, overworked, and human.

I recall my utility forester talking about how he could spend the last years of his career unearthing and organizing the easement agreements.

I'm sure if pushed hard enough it can and will be produced, hopefully not to the point of rftreeman's reference, but let nothing surprise ya if they have to go to that much trouble.

However, I agree that it should be a bit more readily available.

 

[PinnaclePete]

Go to the International Society of Arboriculture's consumer website, TreesAreGood.com Trees Are Good - Find a Tree Care Service and look for a consulting Certified Arborist that can help you value the "damages", review MN law and the easement. If they were instructed to remove the trees, it's on the utility. If the crew removed the trees because they thought it best, it's on the contractor.

Notification, IMO, should always be done when utility pruning. Permission should always be documented when removing someone's property (trees) no matter the size.

 

[Bigus Termitius]

Go to the International Society of Arboriculture's consumer website, TreesAreGood.com Trees Are Good - Find a Tree Care Service and look for a consulting Certified Arborist that can help you value the "damages", review MN law and the easement. If they were instructed to remove the trees, it's on the utility. If the crew removed the trees because they thought it best, it's on the contractor.

Notification, IMO, should always be done when utility pruning. Permission should always be documented when removing someone's property (trees) no matter the size.

Absolutely, however, my favorite line was always, "....we never got no letter!"

Yeah, maybe...

I always got a kick out of how everyone gets the notifications except the people that don't want their trees trimmed. And naturally these folks always thought that this was their get out of trimming free card. It wasn't...

I had a guy a couple of years ago that was a chronic major pain. He had a nice tree line out front of his place nestled in the timber. I was dreading it. I went to the door, no answer, so we fired up out front and I started in on the service drop with a hotstick by the meter.

Here he comes out of the shop, I'm thinking, well, here we go. However, I always put my best foot forward. The only thing he was worried about out front was the baby trees he had planted, we trimmed the oaks, removed the less desirables, and minded his plantings. They were at least marked and protected.

It was freaking arctic, so he invited us into his shop for lunch and coffee breaks. He had an awesome wood heated woodshop, and I shared how my son was interested in woodworking. He asked us to stop by someday and we eventually did. He sent my son home with a Grizzly Industrial Catalogue and some cedar wood planks.

The utility forester was amazed that not only did I have no troubles, but made a friend.

It's about trees and power, but mostly about people and successful diplomacy. That can be the greatest reward or greatest stress of being in the middle of all that.

BTW, in the presence of any doubt it's all on the contractor.:biggrin: