Ethanol-Out

Arborist Forum

Help Support Arborist Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
If I'm not mistaken...Jeff Gordon (NASCAR) is running E-15 this year.
He just won last week...mostly by coincidence..or..not..whatever??
Ethanol is likely to get worse %wise.
Sure is strange how Gordon won right when oil was starting to spike??
Ahh...probably just a freak coincidence...just hadn't won in 2 years...WTF???
:cheers:
J2F
 
:msp_thumbdn:/\ :msp_thumbdn:/\ :msp_thumbdn:/\
When gas hits $5.00 a gallon again, you might wish that you drove a Prius. I really don't understand the anti-hybrid vehicle mentality expressed by some AS members :(. If you need a truck with a powerful engine that gets 10 MPG that's fine, but hybrids do have their place.

I'd rather drive my VW, or Honda. Thanks, but EV's and hybrids are sour for me. I just don't like them. In fact, a Honda CRX 1.5 with a 5 speed manual can get 50 mpg on the highway... much better than the Prius's 40 or so. That same CRX can get about 35mpg in the city. Not to mention it is a much cheaper car to maintain and much better looking car than the Prius. Heck, a Ford Escort ZX-2 looks better than a Prius. This is my view on hybrids... they are hype. There are many gas-sipping cars out there that get very similar milage to the Prius. And, they all are a lot cheaper to buy, run, and maintain.

Again, this is all my take on the topic.

Disclaimer: I am not going to pour pure ethanol into anyone's Prius... it was meant to poke fun. Heck, that damn thing probably would run fine anyways with pure ethanol in its tank. Sorry for offending those who happen to love a Prius.
 
Last edited:
Yep, the Prius models are pretty damned ugly. Many of the cars that get gas mileage similar to the Prius aren't in the same class, they're smaller cars and are built much lighter. And there's the emissions issue...

Back on topic...It will be intersting to see if Ethanol-Out actually works.
 
One of the problems of hybrids is that most people don't take into account the battery life as part of there mileage costs. How many miles/battery replacement which isn't cheap do we get. A diesel hybrid would make alot more cents/saved. Hybrid batteries are toxic to manufacture negating the green value as well. That being said we still need to try new things and work out the bugs otherwise we'd still be riding horses to work.
 
One of the problems of hybrids is that most people don't take into account the battery life as part of there mileage costs. How many miles/battery replacement which isn't cheap do we get. A diesel hybrid would make alot more cents/saved. Hybrid batteries are toxic to manufacture negating the green value as well. That being said we still need to try new things and work out the bugs otherwise we'd still be riding horses to work.

Exactly. There are better options out there IMHO. OPOC's one of them. I can't wait to hear the exhaust note of one of those!

Back on topic, the best way to remove ethanol is by not putting it in at the refinery. That probably won't happen, so the next best option is adding 3.8 tablespoons of water to each gallon of gas to make the mix phase separate, let that sit for a week or more, and then siphon the gas off the top of the ethanol.
 
Last edited:
Our biggest problem is that the manufacturer's seem to have had their collective heads in the sand, when it came to developing fuel systems that would tolerate ethanol fuels. The auto makers seem to have a handle on the problem and are progressing in their designs, most offer systems capable of handling E85 without problems. I know, long term affects are still unknown, but they will continue to evaluate and work on the energy problems of the future if they want to stay competitive. The small engine folks need to step it up a notch.

Alcohol is not new, Ford used it a century ago. Motorsports has used it for many years. I believe it is a viable alternative energy source. I'd rather pay the American farmer to grow something, rather than pay them to grow nothing, which we've done for years. My old farm boss used to call certain fields, Kennedy Ground.
 
I'm not sure it's wise to use good farmland to grow fuel instead of food but Brazil does it just fine.
If your going to use and alcohol based fuel then try to use it 100% not a blend. For race cars that run an alcohol the compression ratio is a lot higher and they use about double the amount of fuel. It's a high energy fuel but it requires more energy to be put in in order to get the higher energy out. Burning rates must be considered. Like pistol gunpowder vs. rifle gunpowder. Everything has its place and preferred applications.
 
I'd rather pay the American farmer to grow something, rather than pay them to grow nothing, which we've done for years.
If we take the meddling fed gov out of the picture the marketplace wouldnt pay em for sitting on their ass...but it wouldnt pay em for growing fuel either
 
Our biggest problem is that the manufacturer's seem to have had their collective heads in the sand, when it came to developing fuel systems that would tolerate ethanol fuels. The auto makers seem to have a handle on the problem and are progressing in their designs, most offer systems capable of handling E85 without problems. I know, long term affects are still unknown, but they will continue to evaluate and work on the energy problems of the future if they want to stay competitive. The small engine folks need to step it up a notch.

Alcohol is not new, Ford used it a century ago. Motorsports has used it for many years. I believe it is a viable alternative energy source. I'd rather pay the American farmer to grow something, rather than pay them to grow nothing, which we've done for years. My old farm boss used to call certain fields, Kennedy Ground.

You do realise it takes about how much gas it actually takes to produce a gallon of ethanol, right? How bout the fact that farmers have switched over from sweet corn to fuel corn. We're running out of food... in fact, we have not seen sweet corn at our grocery stores for almost a year now. Hmm... what happened to it? Oh, they're not growing food anymore, just stuff to turn into ethanol so they can siphon off our tax dollars and make us pay more for inferior fuel. Also, E85 is much less efficient than pure gas. Flex fuel vehicles have lost over 30% of their gas milage when run on E85 compared to E10. What does that mean? All of this ethanol bs is politics, no more, no less.
 
I'd rather drive my VW, or Honda. Thanks, but EV's and hybrids are sour for me. I just don't like them. In fact, a Honda CRX 1.5 with a 5 speed manual can get 50 mpg on the highway... much better than the Prius's 40 or so. That same CRX can get about 35mpg in the city. Not to mention it is a much cheaper car to maintain and much better looking car than the Prius. Heck, a Ford Escort ZX-2 looks better than a Prius. This is my view on hybrids... they are hype. There are many gas-sipping cars out there that get very similar milage to the Prius. And, they all are a lot cheaper to buy, run, and maintain.

Again, this is all my take on the topic.

Disclaimer: I am not going to pour pure ethanol into anyone's Prius... it was meant to poke fun. Heck, that damn thing probably would run fine anyways with pure ethanol in its tank. Sorry for offending those who happen to love a Prius.

I have an 09 Fit 5 speed MT and can get about 40mpg if I try to push it. It's too light on the highway so if you try to keep it up at 75mph or so you end up using quite a bit of gas and actually working the car to keep up the speed.

My parents have a prius...2nd generation, maybe 50K on it, batteries are still damn good...you can get about 55-58mpg if you really try with it.

Some meatheads I went to high school with laugh at me when they seem me in either, but I have better things to spend loot on than #### that comes out of the ground and disappears soon thereafter.
 
I have an 09 Fit 5 speed MT and can get about 40mpg if I try to push it. It's too light on the highway so if you try to keep it up at 75mph or so you end up using quite a bit of gas and actually working the car to keep up the speed.

My parents have a prius...2nd generation, maybe 50K on it, batteries are still damn good...you can get about 55-58mpg if you really try with it.

Some meatheads I went to high school with laugh at me when they seem me in either, but I have better things to spend loot on than #### that comes out of the ground and disappears soon thereafter.

The Fit is more of a minivan, IMHO. It is very upright and boxy, especially when compared to a CRX. What I'm talking about for highway milage is a consistent 70-75 mph. With a Prius, the hybrid system is no help, as the real gasoline engine has to push the car. Also, the Fit and Prius are both heavier and bigger than a CRX. If you want a fun car to drive and get great gas milage at the same time, get a CRX. Handling is amazing, and it is quite a peppy car. My brother currently averages about 40 mpg in the CRX automatic. That's right, auto trans. If it had a 5 speed in it, it would get much more as the rpm's would be dropped to around 1400 or so, rather than 3000.

Also, ther is no such thing as global warming, nor global cooling. These are political/scientific bs. The earth has a natural cycle of warming up and cooling down, there is nothing we can do to change that. We can pour as much crap into the atmosphere as we wish, and the earth will be fine. We would be fine too. Geez, bs pisses me off. I just don't get why people piss money on all of this bs, and think they have to drive a Prius around or must buy crappy ethanol blended fuels. You don't, unless you're forced to. This is exactly what the EPA is trying to do, they are trying to chop are legs off and make us have to drive EV's and crap like that. They also want to destroy old classic cars. Especially the beloved 6mpg big block muscle cars of the 60's and 70's.
 
Last edited:
I'm not sure it's wise to use good farmland to grow fuel instead of food but Brazil does it just fine.
If your going to use and alcohol based fuel then try to use it 100% not a blend. For race cars that run an alcohol the compression ratio is a lot higher and they use about double the amount of fuel. It's a high energy fuel but it requires more energy to be put in in order to get the higher energy out. Burning rates must be considered. Like pistol gunpowder vs. rifle gunpowder. Everything has its place and preferred applications.


You're absolutely correct, it's not wise, but it seems other countries are able to ship stuff that sort-of resembles food into our country for consumers to buy, without meeting the strict regs our farmers are faced with. When it costs more to grow it than the selling price, there's not much incentive to continue to grow it. Thirty-five years ago, I picked up filberts (the stores call them "Hazelnuts) on a local farm for $.05/lb. The grower received $.35/lb at market. Today, the filbert farmers are mostly automated, using machinery to grow and harvest the crop. Fuel costs have gone up considerably since they started in the business. They now receive $.40/lb at market. Not much incentive there either. I think Paul Harvey had it correct when he said "The American farmer is the only business man who buys retail and sells wholesale."

As for racing fuels, I've run methanol in the drag race cars for over 40 years, I guess most of it comes from wood products. I love it, makes big power, runs cooler, saves parts, etc. My daughter's JR/Dragster has been on methanol since '93 with a Briggs Motor Sports block, aftermarket billet internals, Tillotson carb and no problems after many seasons. It was sold a few years ago when they both became too old to participate. Last time I saw it, it was still performing well. My BSA Gold Star 500cc Single ran on methanol in '63, it was fun for sure. Just don't start it in the trailer unless the gate is down!
 
You're absolutely correct, it's not wise, but it seems other countries are able to ship stuff that sort-of resembles food into our country for consumers to buy, without meeting the strict regs our farmers are faced with. When it costs more to grow it than the selling price, there's not much incentive to continue to grow it. Thirty-five years ago, I picked up filberts (the stores call them "Hazelnuts) on a local farm for $.05/lb. The grower received $.35/lb at market. Today, the filbert farmers are mostly automated, using machinery to grow and harvest the crop. Fuel costs have gone up considerably since they started in the business. They now receive $.40/lb at market. Not much incentive there either. I think Paul Harvey had it correct when he said "The American farmer is the only business man who buys retail and sells wholesale."

As for racing fuels, I've run methanol in the drag race cars for over 40 years, I guess most of it comes from wood products. I love it, makes big power, runs cooler, saves parts, etc. My daughter's JR/Dragster has been on methanol since '93 with a Briggs Motor Sports block, aftermarket billet internals, Tillotson carb and no problems after many seasons. It was sold a few years ago when they both became too old to participate. Last time I saw it, it was still performing well. My BSA Gold Star 500cc Single ran on methanol in '63, it was fun for sure. Just don't start it in the trailer unless the gate is down!

Yes, methanol is a great racing fuel... but it is a different form of ethanol. Also, fuel milage drops considerably on methanol, and also it is quite dangerous, as you cannot see the flames when it's burning. Those are the two biggest reasons why street cars nowadays still don't run on methanol.
 
Yes, methanol is a great racing fuel... but it is a different form of ethanol. Also, fuel milage drops considerably on methanol, and also it is quite dangerous, as you cannot see the flames when it's burning. Those are the two biggest reasons why street cars nowadays still don't run on methanol.

Absolutely, I would never attempt methanol on the street. Aside from the dangers, at roughly 1.66 greater fuel volume than gasoline, the cost would be prohibitive. The octane rating would be too high for anything but a '60's muscle car engine. The fuel burns so slow, it won't even start when ambients are below 50-60F degrees. The other big danger is, someone would try using it for human consumption with disastrous results.
 
Alcohol is a good fuel, BUT, it's not economical like they want us to think. Years ago, I had a normaly aspirated dragbike, one of a hand full in the country. Paul Gast and I worked for quiet some time to make this thing run. The problem with any alcohol is, it takes about three times the alcohol as it does gas. So, what have you done? Answer: The same amount of work, but burned 3 time the volume of fuel. Back then, alcohol was 80¢ a gallon and race gas was about $5.
My opinion is, the gov has done nothing about the fuel and only subsidized the farmers to turn food into fuel. After all, the gov gets more money off of fuel than they do food.
This is just my opinion and I'm nobody.
 
Alcohol is a good fuel, BUT, it's not economical like they want us to think. Years ago, I had a normaly aspirated dragbike, one of a hand full in the country. Paul Gast and I worked for quiet some time to make this thing run. The problem with any alcohol is, it takes about three times the alcohol as it does gas. So, what have you done? Answer: The same amount of work, but burned 3 time the volume of fuel. Back then, alcohol was 80¢ a gallon and race gas was about $5.
My opinion is, the gov has done nothing about the fuel and only subsidized the farmers to turn food into fuel. After all, the gov gets more money off of fuel than they do food.
This is just my opinion and I'm nobody.

Exactly.
 
You're absolutely correct, it's not wise, but it seems other countries are able to ship stuff that sort-of resembles food into our country for consumers to buy, without meeting the strict regs our farmers are faced with. When it costs more to grow it than the selling price, there's not much incentive to continue to grow it. Thirty-five years ago, I picked up filberts (the stores call them "Hazelnuts) on a local farm for $.05/lb. The grower received $.35/lb at market. Today, the filbert farmers are mostly automated, using machinery to grow and harvest the crop. Fuel costs have gone up considerably since they started in the business. They now receive $.40/lb at market. Not much incentive there either. I think Paul Harvey had it correct when he said "The American farmer is the only business man who buys retail and sells wholesale."

As for racing fuels, I've run methanol in the drag race cars for over 40 years, I guess most of it comes from wood products. I love it, makes big power, runs cooler, saves parts, etc. My daughter's JR/Dragster has been on methanol since '93 with a Briggs Motor Sports block, aftermarket billet internals, Tillotson carb and no problems after many seasons. It was sold a few years ago when they both became too old to participate. Last time I saw it, it was still performing well. My BSA Gold Star 500cc Single ran on methanol in '63, it was fun for sure. Just don't start it in the trailer unless the gate is down!

Remember also, Brazil is a warmer country than the US and has more farmland than city population, and less illegal immigration (I just threw that last part in for no particular reason).
 
a case for hybrids..urban driving

There are two primary reasons for the push for hybrids. One is, they feature regenerative braking, which gives them better mileage in stop and go traffic, plus the engine shuts off at stops and at low speeds, reducing pollution, they don't sit there idling wasting fuel and dumping pollution in traffic jams.

The other is, with the introduction of plug in hybrids, the ability to go a fair commuter distance and not run the ICE at all, meaning they can be charged from the grid or your own say solar panel and battery bank array system (which some guys have done, like with the electric Rangers they got to keep).

They are really trying to eliminate the heat and smog island effect in densely populated areas. They really have made a difference in densely populated areas with the dreaded smog controls on engines just in general terms. I remember before any smog controls and inside cities the air quality was really really bad. It still sucks today, but it has gotten a lot better. Hybrids just take that concept to the next step. Hybrids are a *transitional* stage in automotive development. They are the best we can do right now with semi affordable tech.

With that said, I am not much in favor of hybrids like we have now, because of the engineering, having two motive sources and the fuel storage for both in a single vehicle. Too much weight and complexity crammed into a small package. It works, but....

I prefer-just theoretically-a pure electric for light commuting vehicles, then an add-on generator-holding trailer for long distance driving, say for that weekend ride to gram maws or whatever. I call it the "modular hybrid" approach. You get the best of both worlds then, plus, having a heavy duty generator kicking around your garage is good anyway, for a host of obvious reasons. And for folks living in apartments or townhomes, they could always be just rented for the occasional trip.

From what I have read, the average commute in the US is 33 miles, meaning a range of say 50-100 miles is more than enough for a ton of driving that is done in the US, using tech that is out there right now. No real need for a three hundred mile range on batteries, when you could just hook up the genny trailer for that long trip on the weekends.

I'm talking sedans now, not the dudes who simply must have a v-8 diesel and haul and carry tons of stuff everyday. I mean folks who go work in offices and shops, etc and just need to haul themselves and kids and groceries around. Small sedans fit that niche, that's why we have them. Giant Canyoneros ain't for everyone or for every reason. Even sedans that get good mileage still dump their pollution inside the "urban island" area at stops and stuck in traffic jams or moving real slow, so anything running on batteries then is at an advantage. Plus, electric motors have instant maximum torque, meaning they are better suited for stop and go driving. Go, it works, stop, it is completely shut off. makes a huge difference in what is dumped into the atmosphere right there.

Yes, it is just moving the pollution over to the local coal plant or whatever, but it is easier to run one big sophisticated scrubber as opposed to the complexities they have had to add on to ICE powered vehicles to get them to the still pitiful 30% or so efficiency/conversion stage. A generating plant car run upwards of 90% efficient, some big number like that anyway.

I would also like said genny trailer for the modular hybrid concept to be diesel for the ICE part. It's just more efficient.

Heck, I'd love a pure electric truck right now meselfs. The farm is only 800 acres, meaning I could work all over it all week, for what I might use my truck for, and not run the batts down ever, with just a fifty mile range say on the batts,. and my once a week round trip to town and back for supplies at the most is 35 miles for me, so again, even just a fifty mile range would give me a nice cushion and not beat on the batteries bad. I'd only have to use a generator trailer two-three times a year at the most, given my current driving needs. Most of the time I could keep the truck charged with my modest solar array, and not even use any grid supplied power at all, meaning free to me fuel, or so cheap now as to be free, my rig is long ago paid off and paid for itself and still cruising right along just fine.

I just *dig* the idea of energy independence.

Right now I can't even afford one of the kits for small trucks for an electric conversion (they run 9-20 grand for a ranger or s-10 kit), so the point is moot for me.

I *would* like one though..maybe after they are well on the market and hit the used lots I might be able to get one-or snag a used electric sedan for the parts and build my own. As it is, I drive a four cylinder diesel truck that gets close to 40 MPG with my normal driving, call it mid 30s to be conservative.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top