Experimental Chainsaw Chain

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pataya1

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I'd like to post and get some feedback on what others think if a new or shall we call about a modified Chainsaw chain would be a better production chain than standard chain and would it sell.

I am currently working on a project that I will explain below
Would you use it rather if it costs more?

Regular chain?
Works great when its sharp, and correctly sharpened.

Carbide Chain?
Cuts slow, teeth break, not worth the money.

What if there was another option?

I'm going to take about 24 chains and begin a process of adding chemical plating to them.

I know for some of you there may have known that Carlton chain used to have a higher content of Nickel in it. (now that it's Oregon I really don't know)

For comparison purposes:
I know all the good old General Motors engine blocks, the highly desired blocked ended in 010 casting numbers also called the high nickel block.


I'm gong to do the following over the next few months:
Test the chainsaw chain with plating's applied.
Nickel
Chrome
2 other proprietary plating's that are designed for Cutting surfaces I won't name now.

I'm going to have to experiment carefully with this because you have several factors here:
you cannot add too much plating material because you have to have the chain still fit in the bar and rotate.

You want to still be able to sharpen the chain.

What I hope to discover from this is the following and what I anticipate are the following:

1. A successfully plated chain will cut much better upon initial use.
2. How much longer will the plated chain work better than standard chain.

3. Upon sharpening I am anticipating the chains performance to decrease as the coating wears out of the cutting tooth.

4. What I hope to understand is the exact chemical content of the coating added.

If that recipe as we can call it was used to forge the metal allow in new chain, you would have a pro logger chain worth the money.

I think because now there are less than a handful of manufacturers (I think 2) of chain left, and it would be really interesting to see if this works. Maybe the idea would be bought by on of these 2 or a new player could enter the chain manufacturing market.

It'll be a while before I have results. But I'm at the point where its a go.


Philip
 

AKDoug

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Stihl chain is already hard chromed. There are some interesting coating processes out there, but I wonder how well they would work. Meloniting is extremely hard and wear resistant.
 

Philbert

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Subscribing to follow your experiment!

Oregon sells a MultiCut version of some of their chains - a thicker layer of chrome intended for abrasive conditions. Downside is that the chrome, apparently, cannot be sharpened as well as the underlying steel can.

http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/31290.htm

Do you cut wood in dirty or abrasive conditions?
If you cut abrasive woods such as railroad ties, skidded wood, fire damaged areas, partially logged areas after a skidder, or any place where wood is dirty, we recommend you use the MultiCut™ versions of Oregon® chains. MultiCut™ chains have extra-heavy duty chrome plating applied with an advanced plating process to withstand these kinds of tough, dirty conditions. It also allows you to maintain your saw chain without the need of any special tools. Contact Oregon® or your authorized Oregon® distributor for further information on MultiCut™ chains

Your coatings may be better. I think that cryogenic treating of chains has been mentioned in some threads a while back.

Philbert
 

fearofpavement

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I expect that the manufacturers of chain have experimented with all sorts of coatings, alloys, and hardening processes. I'm not convinced that something is going to come up that they wouldn't already be aware of.

Cutting tools are always seeking a balance between durability, cost and fragility. Really hard alloys cut well but tend to break easily and are hard to sharpen. Easy to sharpen alloys also dull easily. It is hard to come up with something that will work well for "most" applications at a price the market will accept.

There are already a number of options in chain and how many times have you heard "Stihl is better but costs too much"?

I myself prefer Stihl chain but rarely buy it. I usually buy rolls of "lesser" brands because they are less costly and they still work fine for my usage.

Just creating a better chain is not going to get it to market. It would need to enter the market at a price point equivalent to other products and then may gain market share based on positive reviews and experience with it. This will be a difficult task because it will be more expensive to manufacture based on both materials cost and lower volume.

All that said, go for it!
 

Philbert

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Cutting tools are always seeking a balance between durability, cost and fragility.

Even the sharpening angles play a big role. Cut fast (race chain) in clean wood, or keep cutting (storm damage or firewood)? And tooth shape: chisel vs. semi-chisel vs. square ground vs. narrow kerf vs.. . .

But if the OP has hit on something, go for it!

Philbert
 

pataya1

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2 coatings I mentioned and didn't name them.

Both completely new, proprietary.
1 of them is specifically geared toward and with the purposes of things that have moving parts.

Again, the trick here is to get data if I can get the chain to still spin around the bar.

It's one thing to coat ball bearings, but roller bearings, the won't roll after long plating.

I have though this plan through and here's possible step 2 if step 1 doesn't work.

You'd have to take separate chain links, plate them all separate.

You'd have to go up 1 size in the process what I mean is if your running .050 you shoot for .053 so
when you put the chain together it for sure spins in that bigger bar.

Anyways its a work in progress.
 

pataya1

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I have to say one last thing before I go to bed.

For those of you who already know and those who don't know Oregon owns or dominates the chain market, and then there is Stihl.

How is that possible?

Its what you call a brilliant business strategy and its so simple and goes like this...

If your market share is X %and so is your next best competitor, how do you double your market share?

You eliminate the competition.

Buy them out.

This happens every day in the modern world market.

The difference here is this market really has no players left.

So really at the end of the day how much money do you think is being put aside for R&D better cutting longer lasting chain?

Well lets see, if your against Stihl then you buy Oregon, and it is what it is.
If your against Oregon and are Sthil everything you buy Stihl, and it is what it is.

So why should the big manufacturers care really?

Your going to keep buying their chain.

I think that's why new ideas have to come into this market.
 

AKDoug

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Stihl has a guy, with a doctorate in engineering, running their chain development. He's been at it for a couple decades. They take it pretty seriously.
 
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Are you going to plate the whole chain? if so that's not going to work IMHO. I know little about plating, but if it were me I'd focus on just the cutting part of the tooth itself. I would also consider the liability involved. Creating a chain that is brittle in cold temperatures, could severely injure someone. Then we need to think about bar wear if the whole chain is coated. Oil propagation, sparks, weight, the list goes on.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to deter you in any way, just offering my input.:cheers:
 
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watsonr

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if its plated correctly, why not make it so you never have to sharpen it again or use a .050 gauge to start and end with .063 or make a new gauge all together. Your limiting your thought process if you begin with a lot of restrictions..

Just saying, sounds cool!
 

MRCo.

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Again, the trick here is to get data if I can get the chain to still spin around the bar.
Easy- only coat the tooth, not the drive links. Obviously this is easy in manufacture, but if you are using made chains now, cant you invert them and only 'dip' the teeth? (I'm imagining a tank of something here...I don't know how the hell the coating would be applied!)
 

gunnusmc03

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I don't really understand how applying a coating to the tooth will really affect longevity of the chain. I mean the only part that stands to benefit from any sort of coating is the cutting surface, but as soon as you sharpen the chain that special coating is long gone.
 
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I don't really understand how applying a coating to the tooth will really affect longevity of the chain. I mean the only part that stands to benefit from any sort of coating is the cutting surface, but as soon as you sharpen the chain that special coating is long gone.
I agree, I would think the process needs to be incorporated into the metal, not just on the surface.
 

blades

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What would need to be created is a bi-metalic chain, similar in nature to bi-metalic bandsaw blades. 2 different materials electron welded together ( sounds expensive - it is ) Coatings for cutting tools are great first time around, such as end mills, drills, but when sharpened the coating must be reapplied ( significant improvement first time around, significant expense to recoat). There are various surface coatings either electroplated in place or flamed on. Flamed on coating can change the surface several thousandths deep for the entire length of the cutter. Amalgamated coatings are another creature but could represent the ultimate way to provide a tooth with the characteristics we need. Carbide/ steel amalgamation is used quite a bit in industry. Likely this would make a carbide tip chain seem cheap. Lot of research going on in Organic Chemistry at the sub molecular level.
 

john_bud

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I don't think that surface plating would be effective. At least not in the loop form. The chain would wind up being a solid pretty quickly. Maybe you have a different path than I am imaging? Anyway, good luck with it. And remember that perseverance can overcome nearly any obstacle !
 

bikesandcars

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I would prefer to have a chain that cuts as well as current chain but sharpens easier rather than a coated chain that is more expensive, cuts a little longer, but I can't sharpen easily.

What's more annoying.. having to sharpen a chain or not being able to sharpen a chain? You really need a system of both chain and sharpening method

The closest analogy I would see is to drill bits, you can get titanium and a bunch of other coatings on sears drill bits but they are essentially worthless in 2 minutes of use. I'd rather just have some good high speed steel bits. Cobalt seems to be a great bit for certain metals but is a little brittle.

What about a cobalt toothed chain?
 

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