Friction devices aloft

[xtremetrees]

Do you sue them?
Id rather take a wrap on the rope itself than to rope with a fig. 8 or a munter on a D carabiner. (A munter hitch could cut itself.)
Esp. on tall trees a fig 8 for rigging can get really hot and a stalled hanging log could be melted in half from heat generated. Therefor I force my heat back into the rope itself or to a natural crotch. I rope most of my own wood because I dont want to pull a groundie across the yard. Heat dissapates into wood alot faster than metal. I have looked at window cleaners fritcion devices to lower wood with but again its metal. I bought and have used the black widow rope and device. The device is small and eaisly worked aloft. problem is the rope is to small for my hand.

 

[BigJohn]

Well you got me stumped. I guess the rest of us are just F-ups who use port a wraps on the ground or the larger bollard type of devices? Sure I drug groundies across the ground or pulled porta wraps up a tree but thats the groundies fault.

If your really worried about heat there is one company that has a water cooled lowering device. The drum is filled with anti-freeze I believe. So just strap one to the base of the tree and see what happens. Time to come into the at least the 20th. No need to always be taking your own wraps up there and cutting and lowering sometimes if cant find one of the F-ups on ground and they disapear or act like they can hear you. If thats the case cut a stub and throw it at them.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Ummmmmmm i think heat energy is like electrical energy; conducts through similar devices etc. Thus, i think of wood as a thermal insulator, and metals as thermal conductors; especially aluminum (copper and titanium etc.). Thus, these metals (especially the more/ faster conductive ones); can carry heat away from a hot point (so can burn you elsewhere on the device); whereby the wood as a thermal (just as electrical) insulator can only hold the produced heat in one place, allowing it to concentrate there (and not burn you elsewhere on device).

Another effect you have to calculate in between high support friction to control, versus ground friction to control; is the larger amount of line elasticity into the circumstance. The increased elasticity can allow to much drop and ruin the day; or allow the proper amount of shock absorption and save the day! But, the more elasticity stretch can also thin the rope more on loading and also allow more creep/ stretch at friction point to tear rope up more if highly textured/ not smooth friction device.



i think high friction can be good control; but then ground man can take control line from there; and easily add more friction by rubbing against trunk to prepare for impact; add more in emergency; subtract all that for predicted lowering after impact. This does place more load on support than full friction on support; it does allow more stretch to potentially degrade and heat line if the support friction setting is low in relationship to the load.

i consider rope on rope friction to be high heat, on thermal insulator (the rope itself); though the full standing part pull on the bitters; especially close to load can about eliminate slip and stretch for lower heating, the nylon and polyester etc. are thermal insulators to me, just as they are electrical insulators(though i wouldn't use them for electrical safety).


A Munter to me is a backhand hitch on a small/ krab sized mount. in high loading around such a tight bight, with elastic lengthening to heat and thin rope; while asserting a 2/1 against the rope itself can add up to disaster. Especially if the Munter control end is not inline with the loaded end; so gives more corkscrewing of the line. i think the same pattern of the backhand hitch (Cow without last tuck, or Timber without the whipped spiraling around self) around a spar host/ mount as support and control; has enough friction to decrease the loading before the line crosses itself, to fight itself; also around less tight of a bight. So, just as the higher friction combs out the spiraling more, it also decreases the stretching(and heat produced) thin and 2/1 effect of the rope against itself for less chance of breaking; though the support line is laced in same pattern, just around spar and not krab.

 

[Tree Machine]

In 13 years of tree work I've had a ground guy lower wood for me twice. This doesn't count when doing zipline work, in which case a man is controlling the ground end of the rope for tension and landing pad.

I don't have a big chipper, so there's little need to 'go big' with regards to limb size. The biggest I go is about 6" diameter, so clearly the limb is only going to be so big. When lowering stuff out of a tree from aloft I try to follow that self-imposed size limit, less than 6" diameter and no more than mebbe three times my weight. This keeps it managable, within safe tolerances, keeps the heating of the rope, or metal, to a minimum and generally just requires a hand-belay through a natural crotch, or a pass through a biner, but rarely a 'wrap'. I look for all points of friction, the tree, the hardware and the gloved belay hand matching it up with the size of the limb. It's all intuitive and I've gone too heavy a couple times to learn where that point of 'too big' is.

The key to swiftness is, of course, don't rig if you don't have to, but to have spliced eyes at each end of the lowering line so as ground guy is unclipping a biner, you're rigging the next piece with the other end of the rope.


I use slings a lot, more than anyone else I know, but that's part of doing swift, solid aerial rigging and lowering. Most of the time I DON't use a sling, just the use of the rope, forming it into a girth hitch, though I don't know if it can be correctly termed that with the use of the eye and steel caribiner. I guess it would be a choker at the point. if I need to be extra secure, instead of once around the limb and clip, you do a quick cow hitch and clip the eye back to the rope itself.

Anyway, the reason I do this is I love to rig, I love rigging scenarios, and when rigging, it's because we're over top of something critical, otherwise I'd sling it, cut it, unsling it, throw it. Most of all I like to work swiftly and don't like to depend on the guy on the ground to get his beans in order for me to move forward with the work. This way, all the ground guy has to do is unclip and move the limb away from the kill zone and keep focussed on the cleanup, which is the reason I have him there. He has both hands free and is able to move himself freely wherever he needs to be to guide and release the limb without having to babysit and manage a rope. If I nick the major forks before lopping the limb, the ground guy can go direct to chipper, no need to involve a saw at all. I don't have a lot of patience in waiting for ground men, so the less of a task they have on the ground, the less complicated for them and the quicker we can move on with things.

 

[jmack]

Do you sue them?
Id rather take a wrap on the rope itself than to rope with a fig. 8 or a munter on a D carabiner. (A munter hitch could cut itself.)
Esp. on tall trees a fig 8 for rigging can get really hot and a stalled hanging log could be melted in half from heat generated. Therefor I force my heat back into the rope itself or to a natural crotch. I rope most of my own wood because I dont want to pull a groundie across the yard. Heat dissapates into wood alot faster than metal. I have looked at window cleaners fritcion devices to lower wood with but again its metal. I bought and have used the black widow rope and device. The device is small and eaisly worked aloft. problem is the rope is to small for my hand.

just brutal

 

[xtremetrees]

TM- Youve gotten by for so long with almost nothing bro. I like how you use the slings to chopd down a tree. Working trees alone afford me more options when I have 5 or 6 loop runners and over a house. Some times I throw stubbs while slings are still attached to limbs aloft but not often. I have even used the large tuflex slings to reduce a trees height to fit in a landing zone while throwing the stubb. Ive found useing large slings is dangerous, I agree if the wood is larger than 6 inches ensure there is a later branch stubb for the sling to catch on because that much weight will cause bark seperation causing sling to strip the bark to the lateral stubb.

Tree spyder- Rigging from aloft does reduce the amount of slack in the rope as you are only working half the length of the standard two leg system, shorter trees are a bit more difficult than talller ones. With no room no stretch is best, meaning I should get friction aloft.

The devices currently available aloft will cause hockling of the rope meaning twisting and knotting, i.e. fig 8, munter on a d gate biner, until they come up with a bollard type device to carry aloft I will have to make do with either 1.) wrapping the rope around itself for friction or 2.) wrapping/threading the rope through limbs or 3.) wrapping the rope around one limb multiple times.4.) slinging/unslinging

The black widow friction device is just to small to accept larger diameter line.

Window cleaner friction divices albit metal and some are spring loaded thereby reducing impact forces arent substantial enuff for commonly large wood force our industry faces.

Sailing vessels have smaller type bollards of what I am looking for thou I am not at a sea and rather a sea of cars and truck Id like to venture to a yatch club and see what tackle they use.

 

[Tree Machine]

What we need is a biner-type device (scaffold hook, etc, something locking) with the point of friction about 2-3X the diameter of the rest of the biner. Actually, a current steel triple lock can be used, but the diameter of the bend in the rope squeezes down. Since the 'wrap' around this friction area may endure some force, a bigger diameter is necessary for this 'drum' (mini-bollard). I see this as radiating fins coming off the biner's horizontal zone, wrapped with a fairly heavy gauge tube of stainless. It could even be 'molded' to conform to the path of the rope.

The gate could be configured in an upside-down position compared to what we're used to, and open outward instead of inward. Just dreamin.

If a device such as this were created, we'd have to understand that in belaying a limb down is nearly, if not identical to belaying yourself down. This concept device will probably get used for both abseiling and light rigging. We know how tree guys are. I don't know what kind of ramifications this might hold. I doubt it would be the end of the friction hitch, but it would be more new-school than anything we've seen.

 

[darkstar]

Mini me

Check into the new mini porta.... Sweet Dark

 

[trevmcrev]

Hey Tree Machine, in another post of yours i read something along the lines of you rigging/lowering from the tree when on working solo. Could you please expand on how you are doing this... ie: how is it being untied/released once on hte ground???
BTW, like your ideas on the mini friction device

Trev

 

[woodchux]

The way that i do it when necessary is
to tie the branch to a split tail or sling + biner
and lower it like you do with the saw when its out of gas

 

[xtremetrees]

I've seen rope friction aloft actually cut a utilities pole workers strap right into. As the GRSC has a mount so should this aloft have a mount thereby reducing the rope against tree friction thus saving more lives.

 

[xtremetrees]

Here is a quote from 2002 in the thread what size lowering line do you use.

Tom used to have a device, I believe he called it ALF, not sure what happened to that device. Tom still using it?

Im sorry that was 2004

Is that when the GRSC was first comming to market?

 

[simpletreeman]

tree machine,

can you explain in more detail how you lower limbs by yourself? Also, how do get around not rigging anything bigger than 6"? this is a topic that really interests me. Thanks.

 

[Tree Machine]

First, let me start with a disclaimer:

This is just how I do it. I am not, in any way, suggesting you do it like this.

I will tell you that I find it, personally, safer. That is because 1) whatever you're riggin isn't that big and 2) YOU have control of it. This means never a shockload.


There's a lot to explain, as far as all the different methods, and I've been edited out without warning for sharing this stuff, but I can suggest how this is possible: Spliced eyes and biners.

I've enjoyed lately rigging with 11 mm. That 8 mm black widow is too small for hand-belaying, and 13 mm is just plain gross excess for the moderate loads I lower. And I never rig unless I have to.

Spliced eyes and biners on your lowering line, and loop slings with slideline biners. I would never be able to do what I do without these. They are the simple tools that make it possible.

 

[coydog]

sorry man, but spliced eyes and biners etc. could mean anything, please elaborate

 

[Tree Machine]

tree machine,

can you explain in more detail how you lower limbs by yourself? Also, how do get around not rigging anything bigger than 6"? this is a topic that really interests me. Thanks.

Hey Mr. Simple Tree Man, Welcome to Arboristsite!

How do I get by with not rigging anything bigger than 6"? First, determine whether you really have to lower the stuff. Also, determine what machinery you have on the ground. If you can handle loggage and weight and can chip big limbs, my methods would be laughable, except in the highly technical situations.

What I mean is, lowering only small limbage, and doing it from aloft serves me, but may make no discernable sense to your operation. Just understand that the methods are applicable to local conditions and the machinery I have. I don't think I'm that unique. I'm a solo, or two-man, or three-man company with a 6" chipper. Very, very basic. Even though I now have guys helping, I still prefer the solo methods, mainly because of the speed with which I can get things done, not having to depend on another person in the aerial part.

 

[Tree Machine]

TM- Youve gotten by for so long with almost nothing bro.

Heh heh. I appreciate that for the compliment it is.

You understand the problems that can arise whileusing a friction device aloft. You have two excellent examples:

The devices currently available aloft will cause hockling of the rope meaning twisting and knotting, i.e. fig 8, munter on a d gate biner,

These things are bad. There IS a device wrap that avoids this malintrubulated rope scenario.

1.) wrapping the rope around itself for friction or 2.) wrapping/threading the rope through limbs or 3.) wrapping the rope around one limb multiple times.4.) slinging/unslinging

1)crossing the rope over itself, yes
2)rope through a crotch or over a limb
3)never multiple times. we're not lowering HEAVY weights
4)Both the slinging of the limbs to be lowered (when applicable) or the use of the slings as false crotches, redirects and second leg of a Z-rig

#4 is at the heart of solo, aerial lowering, though 1 and 2 complete all that there is. The techniques are actually very simple, as are the tools required (remember, spliced eyes and biners and slings). Number one, the crossing of the rope over itself may be the most important aspect of all.

 

[Tree Machine]

The last time I attempted to share this, I was bleeped off the radar by the moderators. I figure becausemebbe they thought this was condoning dangerous methods. Anyway, I spent about an hour pulling together the images and drawing the diagrams and writing to SHARE what was being asked for, but I was erased.

I would like to, if I could, ask permission from the moderators if discussing the technique of SOLO tree part lowering is allowed.

I'm going to imagine not. The reason is, like if you do it like I do it, you would have no problem. But if you vary, or cut too big and you get hurt or damage something, ya learned it here, ya know?

You can not be doing unsafe things, and what solo aerial lowering is is doing an unsafe thing. That's why this is sort of a background topic we rarely ever have discussed here at Arboristsite.



If it's OK with the moderators, I'll share. I'm not the only one to do solo aerial lowering, I'm just mebbe a little more refined and polished. I'm also one of the few who has pictures and video of it, but before I go spillin that on the table, IS THIS TOPIC OK TO TALK ABOUT?.

 

[Tree Machine]

and I can't take silence as consent.

 

[trevmcrev]

TM
Count me in for a private message if not.
Trev