Geothermal just installed and first $1300 dollar power bill is here

[windthrown]

Yah, good advice to get someone to look at it for sure. Around here there are 3 or 4 energy companies that will do installs and retro-fit previous installs. Also some plumber/electricians that can do installs. I called a few of them to get advice on OWB manufactures, as a start to look around at them. CB and WM were at the top of all their lists.

As an example here, some 'energy' company installed a hydronic floor loop heating system in this house, and did a good job. BUT, they installed an ELECTRIC boiler for the loop. They said it was the most efficient. BS... even at these prices, propane would be half the cost of heating this house with electric.... also they installed a solar water heating system that works well. So they had the installation skills, but they were not so smart when it came to energy and heating costs. I have since retro-fitted the solar water heater and electric hydronic floor heater with a Central Boiler OWB, and it works well. I had to custom design the heating system, and match the flat plate Hx according to size of the electric boiler (big special order Hx). It also took some tweeking, but in general, a week after it was installed, we shut off the house heater and only use the electric water heater in summer to bump up the solar water to an even temp on cloudy days (which is minor).

The OWB will pay itself off in less than 5 years after install. As rates go up it will be less. This winter has been cold, and a lot more snow than usual, so I would guess that the OWB will pay itslef off next year (4th year of operation). Overall the OWB works great. It is not the most efficient wood burning system, but we have a lot of free wood here. Now that it is plumbed we can change the boiler unit, or add more lines to it and expand. Lots of options.

 

[olyman]

This winter has been cold, and a lot more snow than usual, so I would guess that the OWB will pay itslef off next year (4th year of operation). ----now of course you know this cant be true--al goreless says were having a heat wave--and he has the pulitzer prize to proveit--wonder what it cost him????????/:censored: :censored:

 

[Husky137]

al goreless says were having a heat wave--and he has the pulitzer prize to proveit--wonder what it cost him????????/:censored: :censored:

Nobel prize. Nevertheless an undeserving twit.

 

[windthrown]

Now now. Gore may be a hypocryte or a fool, but GW is about climate change, not weather. Overall average global temps are going up. Undeniable measured evidence. Also as a result of more entropy in the atmosphere (entropy is waste heat energy) there will be more extremes in weather: higher highs and lower lows. So you are going to see weirder weather as a result. GW does not mean it will always be warmer, or that tropical Florida weather is going to move to Ohio anytime soon.

It is snowing a lot more here this year. We have had a foot of snow this week. Unusual for this area, but only for the past 20 or so years. When I was a kid it used to snow like this almost every year here. And the temps got a lot colder than they do here now in winter months. Used to get temps into the single digits for a week or 10 days. Now 15 has been the low the last 10 years. Also the Cascade glaciers are getting smaller. The Alaska glaciers are really getting smaller.

So from my experience and observations for 50 years living in the west, things are warming up.

 

[KsWoodsMan]

Bassman, been nearly a year and wondered if he ever go it worked out or just gave up on it.

A thought that did come to mind was the geotherm unit was wired wrong to go into cooling mode instaed of heat as wel as the electic backup coming on at the same time. The 2 would be working against each other this way and barely heating the house having to run all the time.

 

[cjcocn]

Bassman, been nearly a year and wondered if he ever go it worked out or just gave up on it.

A thought that did come to mind was the geotherm unit was wired wrong to go into cooling mode instaed of heat as wel as the electic backup coming on at the same time. The 2 would be working against each other this way and barely heating the house having to run all the time.

Yes, I was actually wondering about this myself recently. I fellow along the road into town just had his installed and I was wondering what kind of system he had, how it would work out for him, and that led me to thinking about this thread.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

Actually.....

when comparing efficiencies electric always comes out on top...now the obvious stupid question of the day:
Was the meter read correctly by the utility?
:jawdrop:

 

[fast*st]

Just helped my neighbor put in a ground source heat pump style geothermal, I guess you boys have it easy! 18 inches? I went 1200 feet of 7' deep trench in hardpack clay, one loop at the bottom, the other 2-3 feet higher. Terminated all the loops in the house so that each can be tested seperately.

This is a glycol/water mix, not sure on the heat pump brand, 2x5kw electric elements added to the airstream as backup.

At the moment, $/btu here, electricity is cheaper than oil

 

[drmiller100]

we pay 6 cents a kwh for electricity, and 3 bucks a gallon for propane.

at this rate, electricity is safely under half the price of propane.

for the OP, I would say the installer is a hack.

Find someone GOOD, pay him GOOD money, and he can probably make what you have work pretty well.

 

[SCOOTER]

somethin's wrong

I have geo-thermal.. and i heat and cool approx 5000 sq. ft., had it for 6 years now,, and the hightest bill i've ever had is 170.00. GET IT CHECKED. I also have one installed at my office that is about 6000 sq. ft. and the bill there is about 220.00 . A lot of electric there with computers, etc. and door's opening all the time. There is a major problem there.. I am in the Shenandoah Valley of Va. so it does get cold here ..lol

 

[Marc]

I have geo-thermal.. and i heat and cool approx 5000 sq. ft., had it for 6 years now,, and the hightest bill i've ever had is 170.00. GET IT CHECKED. I also have one installed at my office that is about 6000 sq. ft. and the bill there is about 220.00 . A lot of electric there with computers, etc. and door's opening all the time. There is a major problem there.. I am in the Shenandoah Valley of Va. so it does get cold here ..lol

Probably better to compare kWh than bills, since generation and delivery charges can vary so greatly from place to place.

 

[Locoweed]

we pay 6 cents a kwh for electricity, and 3 bucks a gallon for propane. at this rate, electricity is safely under half the price of propane.
.

I paid $2.40 @ gallon for my last propane fill and the average for electricity here is probably $.15 @ kwh

 

[rb_in_va]

Now now. Gore may be a hypocryte or a fool, but GW is about climate change, not weather. Overall average global temps are going up. Undeniable measured evidence. Also as a result of more entropy in the atmosphere (entropy is waste heat energy) there will be more extremes in weather: higher highs and lower lows. So you are going to see weirder weather as a result. GW does not mean it will always be warmer, or that tropical Florida weather is going to move to Ohio anytime soon.

You are right. The catch-phrase used to be "global warming," it has now switched to "climate change." Maybe it will someday be changed to "watching China pollute."

 

[Wood Doctor]

My cousin installed geo and was bragging about how cheap it will be .
his first $1300 dollar power bill just showed up and he is pissed.
the installer said if the ground temp is not up the power will kick in to help.
his last bill was $178 befor the geo and now $1300 .
I can see how this thing will pay for itself in only 5 years ..... ya right.

For $1,300, I can heat and air condition my entire house for an entire year and have enough left over to take care of all other electrical demand. I just added up all my electricity and gas bills for 2007-2008 and knocked out all the charges that have nothing to do with usage. The house has 3800 sq ft of heated/AC living area. The total was less than $1,300. 'Course I also burn five cords of wood, but that only heats the walkout basement.

Yep, there is something wrong. Is it possible that the meter reader was drunk? I think the reading was off by a factor of 10.

 

[cityevader]

I did have a meter reader mistake one digit....on the large side of the reading of course!!!!

The arrows alternate direction clockwise and counterclockwise at each number of the sequence. Out of 5 or 6 "digits" the second one was reading "nearing 9" and was misreading as "passing zero" with an absolutely enormous bill out of nowhere.

I'm just glad they didn't send the "pot police" to see if I was growing!!

 

[ziggy2b]

meter

I'd call electric company??? Need to recalibrate the meter,or go to 200 amp service

 

[Wood Doctor]

I did have a meter reader mistake one digit....on the large side of the reading of course!!!!

The arrows alternate direction clockwise and counterclockwise at each number of the sequence. Out of 5 or 6 "digits" the second one was reading "nearing 9" and was misreading as "passing zero" with an absolutely enormous bill out of nowhere.

I'm just glad they didn't send the "pot police" to see if I was growing!!

Well, I suspected a misread like that and so did LOML after I told her about it. The power company here has installed meters that transmit a signal to the reader as he/she drives down the street. So now it's all electronic as they say. I suppose that could fail also, so we still check the bill now and then against the meter and compare it to the previous year. That usage always shows up on the bill as well.

 

[woodguy105]

Ok aside from the fact that something is very very wrong lets back up the bus over the dead carcass in the road.

First things first!!!!!

What is the transfer medium, glycol, water, alcohol?


Is the geothermal system a vertical loop with many drilled holes(280 feet deep) and transfer loops or a shallow dug trench typically over 1000 feet long 18 inches deep or more with a return loop?

Or is the system an open loop with well or creek water returning the water to its source? If so is the water returned to a deeper level for summer use and a shallow well for winter or heating exchange?



Oh well lets dip into the stupid part now!!!!!

Was a bentonite grout(with my favorite scam being thermally enhanceed grout used to fill the holes surrounding the loops if so uh oh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

That is why one should always use mason sand as a transfer medium any way with pipe loops- or a semi open loop well system with a deep well.






They neglected to tell you that bentonite clay regardless of it percentage in the mix "is and always will be" a net insulator in regard to transfer of temperature

"Kelvins laws 1 and 2 of fluid thermodynamics are never wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

There may be air in the system, the loops may have a hole which can and will kill the pump or pumps.

If the shallow buried loop is less than four feet below the surface the benefit of the thermal mass of the earth is wasted as ground temperatures are 52 degrees or less at that depth.

If thermally enhanced grout was used to cover the shallow buried loop shame on the contractor=idiot.


Please let us know more;

Signed a concerned NYSDEC certified water well driller and pump installer.

:agree2:

:monkey:

 

[oneoldbanjo]

The interesting thing about this 10 month old thread is that Bassman....the guy who started this all.....is the only one not participating in this thread anymore.

I looked and he is still around and has posted on other threads recently.

 

[KsWoodsMan]

The interesting thing about this 10 month old thread is that Bassman....the guy who started this all.....is the only one not participating in this thread anymore.

I looked and he is still around and has posted on other threads recently.

Yep ! I've been curious about the outcome for quite a while. Been a lot of suggestions.

The part I was intersted in was the second bill. Good thing they can't throw you in debtors prison anymore. Very many bills like that one would put a man in the poor house for sure.